Piracy

[zandiago]

Good day boys and girls. So let me ask you, what are your thoughts on piracy. Such as illegal music download, software & movie piracy? In recent times there has been stiffer penalties for being found guilty of the offense. many people have different arguments for/against piracy. For example, those who are against piracy says it's like "stealing goods". On the other hand, those who practice/support piracy say that the original product is too expensive to buy and therefore have resorted to illegal means of getting the product. So what do you guys think and if you're against piracy what penalties should be given?

[Ancient Dragon]

Piracy is illegal. period. Its the same as stealing money from someone. If you have a job would you like it if someone else was paid for the hours that you worked ?

>>On the other hand, those who practice/support piracy say that the original product is too expensive to buy and therefore have resorted to illegal means of getting the product.
Bullpucky. A thief is still a thief by any other name.

[sneekula]

Too hot to touch!

[Narue]

Piracy is wrong, period. You can rationalize it with different motives, but in the end you're still refusing to honor the creator's wishes even though they have every right to distribute their creation however they choose.

The penalty should be identical to theft. You're punished in a way that's representative of the value of the product you've stolen and the value of the product is the listed price. Even if you personally don't agree with the cost of a product, you're not the one who sets the price.

Of course, just like any crime, piracy is a choice. You can choose whether or not to commit the crime for whatever reasons you want. But as with any crime, you should risk getting caught and being punished.

[Sturm]

>You're punished in a way that's representative of the value of the product you've stolen and the value of the product is the listed price.

Software "piracy" is not theft. Theft means to "deprive someone of property by taking it." A"pirate" is not depriving the creator of any property he owns nor deserves.

>But as with any crime, you should risk getting caught and being punished.

It's small enough to be negligible. Would I rather pay $6000 for some software or would I rather "pirate" it with the negligible downside of being caught? I, and most others I hazard to guess, would take the "piracy" route.

[Narue]

>Theft means to "deprive someone of property by taking it."
So depriving someone of money by taking something without paying for it isn't theft?

>It's small enough to be negligible.
As I said, you can rationalize it however you want. That doesn't change what it is.

[Sturm]

>So depriving someone of money by taking something without paying for it isn't theft?

If I wasn't going to buy it in the first place, no it's not.

You can villainize it all you want. That doesn't change what it is.

[Ancient Dragon]

>So depriving someone of money by taking something without paying for it isn't theft?

If I wasn't going to buy it in the first place, no it's not.

Oh, so now shoplifting isn't theft either. Do you go into your local Wal-Mart store with no intention of buying anything and walking out with your pockets full of movies and games ? If you get caught (which you will) most likely the police will be called and you will be invited to spend several days (if you are lucky) as the guest in the local jail.

>>You can villainize it all you want. That doesn't change what it is
Absolutely -- its a criminal offense.

[Sturm]

>Oh, so now shoplifting isn't theft either.

You're depriving the store of property aren't you? If I "pirate" software that I have no intention of buying, I'm not directly hurting the creator.

>Absolutely -- its a criminal offense.

Do laws dictate your moral outlook on the world? They certainly don't influence mine. Who are you to claim that your morality is superior or "more right" than mine?

[Ancient Dragon]

>>Do laws dictate your moral outlook on the world
>>Who are you to claim that your morality is superior or "more right" than mine?

I was not referring to morality but what is the law of the land. Here is just one of many explainations, but you probably already know that, or you should know it. When you steal software you are violation federal and international copyright laws.

>>They certainly don't influence mine
Then you are a fool.

[Sturm]

>When you steal software you are violation federal and international copyright laws.

Am I supposed to care? If there's no penalty, why not?

>Then you are a fool.

I'm a fool for actually formulated my own opinions instead of being baby fed by the government?

[vmanes]

Oh, what a thorny question!

First, I think the discussion should be broken into two parts.
A - Real piracy, the manufacture and sale of bootleg copies of entertainment or software
B - Casual file sharing

Strictly speaking, both are violations of laws and EULAs. Are both equally amoral?

A - this is the crime that industry should be focusing on - it does represent lost sales, and often diminished reputations when the forgeries are also virus and malware ridden, or are poor quality copies.

B - This is where you see most of the enforcement, the draconian fines - because the little fish is easier to find.

When Hollywood and the software industry complain of their "losses" in the multi billions of dollars, does that really reflect lost sales or is it an outrageous overestimate of all possible bootleg copies in existence? As others have mentioned, they might never have bought the movie or program, but will use the bootleg.

To what degree has Hollywood (the music side in particular) brought about the problem by refusing to move with the times and create a business model that better accommodates the internet connected, multi device user?

[Ancient Dragon]

Good night. No point continuing this conversation with a stupid idot -- one who is incapable of knowing the difference between right and wrong. Or the difference between lawful and illegal acts, and one who could care less.

[Ene Uran]

Hollywood makes piracy look pretty romantic.

[vmanes]

Good night. No point continuing this conversation with a stupid idot -- one who is incapable of knowing the difference between right and wrong. Or the difference between lawful and illegal acts, and one who could care less.

Unfortunately, sometimes "right and wrong" and "legal an illegal" don't exactly pair up. DMCA is the law, but is it right? Such is part of the reason we end up with the Robin Hoods, or Blackbeards, in the electronic world.

Agreed, Sturm is way over the top in his attitude towards this topic.

Sweet dreams.

[sneekula]

~~~ stupid idot ~~~

Do you mean ipod or IDOT (Illinois Department of Transportation)?

[Infarction]

Piracy being one of the best trollbait topics available for discussion, I may as well chip in. :icon_twisted:

On the one hand, I'll also agree that a lot of it is due to limited business models otherwise. I'll admit that I've done it with various media before (lots of anime, and my only defense is that I would never have ended up buying the merchandise had I not pirated it first, and also some music which I haven't been able to find otherwise - yes, even iTunes store (and similar) are severely lacking).

On the other hand, I totally agree that it is theft, and as such, a form of crime. Should a person be sued for $500 per song shared on a P2P network? Perhaps that's overkill, but the perpetrator is still guilty of theft. Furthermore, the justification of "I wouldn't use it otherwise" has absolutely no grounds to stand on. If you wouldn't use it otherwise, don't use it now. If you're using it now, then you can no longer make the claim as it has been invalidated by your actions. There's a lot of products that are sold to people who "would not have bought it" - hell, that's what the whole marketing industry is about.

[Narue]

>>So depriving someone of money by taking something without paying for it isn't theft?
>If I wasn't going to buy it in the first place, no it's not.
Stealing is the act of taking someone else's property without permission. If you don't pay for something that's being sold without permission from the seller, you don't have permission. The property doesn't have to be physical to belong to someone else (hence, copyright laws). If you weren't going to buy it in the first place, you have no right to take it.

>You can villainize it all you want. That doesn't change what it is.
It's a crime. There's no getting around that fact. You'd bitch and moan if I stole something you worked hard to create and needed profit from to survive, so don't pretend that you believe piracy is somehow morally right.

>If I "pirate" software that I have no intention of buying, I'm not directly hurting the creator.
BS. If the only way to legally obtain something is to buy it, an intention to use and an intention to buy are mutually dependent. If everyone used your flawed logic, commercial software would stop because nobody would pay for it.

[invisal]

Pirate is absolutely bad in developed country; however, it can be very helpful for under-developing country.

[Ezzaral]

>When you steal software you are violation federal and international copyright laws.

Am I supposed to care? If there's no penalty, why not?

There are penalties, you have just been lucky enough not to incur them - yet.

>Then you are a fool.

I'm a fool for actually formulated my own opinions instead of being baby fed by the government?

Your opinions on the law matter very little in its enforcement.

[Sturm]

> If everyone used your flawed logic, commercial software would stop because nobody would pay for it.

That is because for a company, it's really not worth it the risk.

[scru]

Wait, lmfao. People actually openly support piracy?
I mean if you pirate stuff keep it to yourself, really.

[jwenting]

Pirate is absolutely bad in developed country; however, it can be very helpful for under-developing country.

Yes, Yemenite and Somali pirates make a decent living stealing merchant ships and holding the crews ransom.

[jwenting]

Wait, lmfao. People actually openly support piracy?
I mean if you pirate stuff keep it to yourself, really.

yes, they do.
I've even seen respected (and up to that point respected by me) software creators openly support piracy, even providing pirated software (cracks to protected applications for example) for Windows or for example games as part of their own products.

[joshSCH]

Ah, hello again Daniweb.. Couldn't miss this opportunity..

First of all, many of you who have posted.. including Infarction and Narue are software engineers and thus your arguments are biased... Most of the software industry is against piracy considering it is their products being pirated.

As for virtual piracy itself, I do support it. I mean, why the hell not? Why would I go to the store and pay 100s of dollars for software which can be downloaded for free off the internet? Hmm.. pay for software or get it for free.. perplexing situation..

Despite the RIAA, MPAA, etc. hopes for catching the 'criminals', piracy will never end. They only go after the easy 'fish' as was stated earlier. The person who occasionally downloads illegal material will never be caught. The smart ones who hide behind proxies and such are also quite safe from prosecution.

This debate simply sends us back to the philosophical question of morality and justice. What exactly is piety? Is the notion of right and wrong relative? Or is there some kind of universal law which all humans should instinctively know? To me, it is obvious that morals are indeed relative to each person, country, and society.

The next question we must ask is this: Are all laws moral? Remember, America illegally broke away from the British government. We committed treason by throwing out the articles of confederation and instating the new constitution. Americans broke the 18th amendment, and had it repealed. If we had all lowered our heads and followed the government like good little puppets, would America exist today? No. It is good to question authority and to make our views known to the rest of the world.

Besides, in my opinion, it is up to the software engineers to make their products safe from piracy. If their product is pirated, then it is their own fault for not making it secure enough.

[twomers]

What did Microsoft say about 'small time' MS Prirateers?

[scru]

Software engineers, for resource constraints, can't spend their time making a product 100% secure form piracy. They'll end up with an airtight, but crappy program if they even tried.
That isn't to say that some of the commercial software isn't total rubbish.

[Ezzaral]

Besides, in my opinion, it is up to the software engineers to make their products safe from piracy. If their product is pirated, then it is their own fault for not making it secure enough.

Ah, so if the shop door is not locked and all windows barred, you are not doing any wrong if you rob the place blind? Nice outlook you have there. Do you beat up old ladies as well, if they make no attempt to defend themselves?

[Narue]

>Most of the software industry is against piracy
>considering it is their products being pirated.
I'm neither for nor against piracy. Once again this is an issue where if I take either stance, I'll be labeled a hypocrite. You can choose to break the law, or not. That's all there is to it.

>It is good to question authority and to make
>our views known to the rest of the world.
Somehow I don't think your stealing software is morally comparable to establishing the United States of America. :icon_rolleyes: Do you really think the best way to disagree with a law is to break it? Do you really think the first thing the founders of the USA did was declare independence? What a bunch of ruffians, who didn't even try to negotiate with Britain and handle things in a civilized manner!

I suppose you can laugh at how you stuck it to the Man while sitting in jail. You won't be much of a martyr though. People will just laugh at how stupid you were to think that committing crimes to show your disagreement was a good idea.

>If their product is pirated, then it is their own fault for not making it secure enough.
So I can break into your house, steal all of your stuff, and you'll be okay with it because it's your fault for not making the house secure enough? What's your address?

Thanks Josh, you've handily proven my point about rationalizing crimes.

[EnderX]

I have a question related to the issue, although it's not quite on-topic.

I've seen stuff online for programs that look interesting, but aren't released in the United States. One of these that especially caught my interest was released only in Japan, and I don't know any Japanese.

There are some copies of the thing floating around online in English, which I'm assuming are pirate/hack combinations, given what I said about where the thing was released.

If I were to officially buy the Japanese copy, but then install one of the English-language copies instead, would that still qualify as piracy? And how would it stand relative to what's been discussed here so far?