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History is all about interpretation...

Member Avatar for joshSCH

True.. It is all about how one perceives it

Member Avatar for Infarction

On the contrary, there is little evidence to support Christianity. If anything, science refutes the idea of a supreme ruler of the universe. There is no scientific data that backs up religion..

What evidence refutes the idea of a supreme creator? Seems like many scientists are noting that things work out suspiciously well to have happened by chance...

Member Avatar for joshSCH

hmm.. perhaps you should go back to page 1, and read the entire thread =p

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Were it not for the 37 pages minus the couple I have read, I'd consider it. I predict that there's a lot of back and forth conversing with little argumentative progress for most of it though. Since you have read it all, would you be so kind as to give a brief summary?

Member Avatar for joshSCH

o god.. they (the christians) offered all this archaeological and other bs proof.. the atheists (me) tried to prove that they were wrong, and that dinosaurs did not live during the time of man.. but they are stubborn, closed-minded, and enjoy circular arguments..

Member Avatar for AdmiralGeek

I have to agree with josh. the dead sea scrolls proves his point.

"You can not force a blind man to see, nor can you force a deaf man to hear"

The same context applies to religious believers.

Michael De Nostradamus Predicted the fall of christinanity in the 21st century. If you take a close look at how religion is evolving, it is trying so hard to keep in track with science.

Jesus was a nice man, who was offering so many positive outcomes for the jewish population. He seemed to have a unique gift (some people of today have a similar EMP-Elctro magnetic Phenomona) the electro magnetic field that surrounds their body is quite potent than others. In current studies, people have more brain activity than others. We all of course have a certain level of Electro magnetisim shrouding us. with out it we would cease to exist. Electro magnetisim also plays a part in how we see "ghosts" and how radio receivers pickup EVP. Due to the high levels of electro magnetisim that these unique people gave out.

Religion is nice to have as a comfort, we all die eventually and simply turn back to our natural compound, CARBON. People keep religion as their solitude so not to fear death its self.

"they say the greatest trick the devil ever played was convincing man that he never existed-but the greatest trick mankind played on its self was fooling himself into believing in something that has the same resemblance of fantasy"

Member Avatar for joshSCH

I have to agree with josh. the dead sea scrolls proves his point.

"You can not force a blind man to see, nor can you force a deaf man to hear"

The same context applies to religious believers.

Michael De Nostradamus Predicted the fall of christinanity in the 21st century. If you take a close look at how religion is evolving, it is trying so hard to keep in track with science.

Religion is nice to have as a comfort, we all die eventually and simply turn back to our natural compound, CARBON. People keep religion as their solitude so not to fear death its self.

"they say the greatest trick the devil ever played was convincing man that he never existed-but the greatest trick mankind played on its self was fooling himself into believing in something that has the same resemblance of fantasy"

Couldn't have said it better myself... Religion was created by humanity as a defense mechanism against the truth..

Member Avatar for Infarction

Or maybe science is a defense mechanism against the truth? There's so much we've based scientific theories on, without hard evidence of how or why they work. We just have some observations which lend themselves to the theories that have been put together (rather, the theories were made to match the observations). Take the evolution of modeling an atom. There's been several models, each of which has been developed according to information available at the time. All but the current model were later found to be lacking for one reason or another, and hence were thrown out or modified to fit the new data. That's how science works. Religion provides a high-level, abstract source of how things were created and then doesn't worry about the details. It's two different methods of explaining how the universe works. Neither one is definitively right or wrong, unless we consult an omniscient source.

Member Avatar for joshSCH

Yes, maybe the science and technology of today cannot truly explain everything.. but perhaps in the future we will finally be able to disprove all religions. It's only a matter of time. As technology has increased over the years, the ideals of christianity have evolved to fit science. Christians are constantly changing, and breaking off into different sects. One day we will discover something that is in complete opposition of religion..

Member Avatar for Infarction

>but perhaps in the future we will finally be able to disprove all religions.
Don't sound so hopeful, it could backfire. What if some religion were proven to be true?

> Christians are constantly changing, and breaking off into different sects.
So are scientists.

>One day we will discover something that is in complete opposition of religion..
We have it. People like you, who think that science is the perfect answer even though it still has many faults.

Member Avatar for joshSCH

Don't sound so hopeful, it could backfire. What if some religion were proven to be true?

Then great, I was wrong.. I will not have to fear death, b/c there will be some form of an afterlife.

> Christians are constantly changing, and breaking off into different sects.
So are scientists.

But the difference is that most scientists are in agreement.. Most scientists do believe the laws of physics to be true. They do believe in evolution, etc.. Some Christian sects have major differences.

>One day we will discover something that is in complete opposition of religion..
We have it. People like you, who think that science is the perfect answer even though it still has many faults.

I'll admit, there are many holes in science. But is religion perfect? Religion has many more holes, and brings up more questions.

Member Avatar for christina>you

o god.. they (the christians) offered all this archaeological and other bs proof.. the atheists (me) tried to prove that they were wrong, and that dinosaurs did not live during the time of man.. but they are stubborn, closed-minded, and enjoy circular arguments..

Thanks.
I don't know about calling me stubborn or closed minded since you are obviously the same and this statement would make you a hypocrite. You refuse to believe anything about the Bible or Christianity and state it as false, so in reality, you are the exact same.

Btw: you still haven't really 'proved' anything to me.

Member Avatar for joshSCH

Oh, I was just joking around in that post.. I did not intend to criticize anyone.. I just didn't want to explain what had happened in the previous posts.

And I am certainly not closed-minded, b/c I was once christian.. you were never atheist.

Member Avatar for christina>you

You are close-minded about your beliefs now though.

Member Avatar for Infarction

Oh, I was just joking around in that post.. I did not intend to criticize anyone.. I just didn't want to explain what had happened in the previous posts.

And I am certainly not closed-minded, b/c I was once christian.. you were never atheist.

You are closed minded. You refuse to allow for the possibility that something could be true. It doesn't matter if you've jumped sides of the fence; you're not allowing for the possibility of being wrong. And it's not just Christians vs. scientists. Many scientists claim to be Christians or to belong to another faith. There's more to religion than just Christianity.

Member Avatar for joshSCH

You are closed minded. You refuse to allow for the possibility that something could be true. It doesn't matter if you've jumped sides of the fence; you're not allowing for the possibility of being wrong. And it's not just Christians vs. scientists. Many scientists claim to be Christians or to belong to another faith. There's more to religion than just Christianity.

No, I have a very open mind. I have thought about christianity and god for many years after I became agnostic. It's just that I have come to the conclusion that there is no god. It's you who is unyielding. You refuse to accept that there may not be a god. I have actually thought about it...

Member Avatar for Infarction

I'm actually an agnostic as well. I don't know whether God exists or not, and as such I don't claim one way or the other. How can you say how much I've considered the topic? I actually spend a lot of time thinking about it, as well as considering ideas proposed by other faiths. Oh, and you're not confusing atheism and agnosticism are you? You've mentioned both, but it seems to be in reference to the same idea.

Member Avatar for joshSCH

No, I guess you didn't read this thread from the beginning.. I was orthodox catholic, then became agnostic, and now atheist.. I consider myself a nihilist.. My mistake about you.. I just assumed that you were christian, b/c it seemed like you were backing up its teachings and philosophies.. I have also thought about the existence of god for a long time.. debated with friends, researched online, and just thought to myself..

Member Avatar for WaltP

Religion was created by humanity as a defense mechanism against the truth..

That's a load of bull. Let's assume for the moment you are correct and religion is mistaken. Then religion was created to make sense of our lives and answer questions that cannot be answered. It was not created to hide the truth, but to answer questions.

Oh, I was just joking around in that post.. I did not intend to criticize anyone.. I just didn't want to explain what had happened in the previous posts.

Yeah, right...

And I am certainly not closed-minded, b/c I was once christian.. you were never atheist.

I completely agree with Infarction.

No, I have a very open mind. I have thought about christianity and god for many years after I became agnostic. It's just that I have come to the conclusion that there is no god. It's you who is unyielding. You refuse to accept that there may not be a god. I have actually thought about it...

Thinking rarely gets to truth. Research and study get closer. Based soley on what you've said, you are in no position to tell someone their religion is wrong and there is no God. All you really know is you don't want there to be one.

Member Avatar for joshSCH

That's a load of bull. Let's assume for the moment you are correct and religion is mistaken. Then religion was created to make sense of our lives and answer questions that cannot be answered. It was not created to hide the truth, but to answer questions.

No, I'm saying humans unconsciously created religion in order to explain what they could not..

Thinking rarely gets to truth. Research and study get closer. Based soley on what you've said, you are in no position to tell someone their religion is wrong and there is no God. All you really know is you don't want there to be one.

.. I did not base my decision solely on my thoughts.. I have researched and studied this matter much more than you will ever know! I have discussed most of the reasons why I don't believe in god in the beginning on this post, and I don't really feel like going back over them again.

I can tell whoever I wish that they are wrong.. They may not think so, but I am sure of it..

And as for me not wanting there to be a god-- you are completely wrong! I wish there was a god.. I wish humanity was guided by some all-powerful being.. I wish there was life after death.. WHO DOESN'T? To claim that atheists don't want a god to exist is foolish..

Member Avatar for Dave Sinkula

The problem with atheism is that it requires too much faith.

And with known fallible sources.

For no benefit.

commented: true. -Christina +7
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Actually for me, atheism (I am actually an anti-theist) doesn't require any faith whatsoever. This is because it is impossible for me to believe in god. As in I CANNOT do it. No matter how many people preach to me or try to convince me, I just cannot believe it. And what are the fallible sources you are talking about?

Member Avatar for joshSCH

I agree, what 'fallible' sources do you speak of? I am atheist b/c I have seen all the evidence for both sides, and I have concluded that atheism is the truth. However, I am open to any ideas..

Member Avatar for christina>you

No, I'm saying humans unconsciously created religion in order to explain what they could not..

Or maybe religion has always been in existence. Religion is believing in some kind of deity, and throughout the ages, there has always been someone believing in that. Whether it be Allah, Jehovah, Greek gods, or some cow that certain people think is 'holy,' religion has always been around.

Member Avatar for Infarction

Or maybe religion has always been in existence. Religion is believing in some kind of deity, and throughout the ages, there has always been someone believing in that. Whether it be Allah, Jehovah, Greek gods, or some cow that certain people think is 'holy,' religion has always been around.

To add to the list some people also regard logical reasoning and scientific facts as a "holy truth" :P

Member Avatar for joshSCH

Religion is believing in some kind of deity, and throughout the ages, there has always been someone believing in that. Whether it be Allah, Jehovah, Greek gods, or some cow that certain people think is 'holy,' religion has always been around.

Precisely. Religion has been around since the beginning of man. Religion has evolved as our technology and understanding of the universe has. It is more likely than not that the human unconscious created 'religion' in hopes of explaining the unexplained and creating a purpose for mankind. Someone probably came up with the idea of a/many supreme beings, and the people liked this idea. And so, over time religion has evolved from the original pagan polytheistic ideologies to modern christian monotheism.

Member Avatar for Infarction

Precisely. Religion has been around since the beginning of man. Religion has evolved as our technology and understanding of the universe has. It is more likely than not that the human unconscious created 'religion' in hopes of explaining the unexplained and creating a purpose for mankind. Someone probably came up with the idea of a/many supreme beings, and the people liked this idea. And so, over time religion has evolved from the original pagan polytheistic ideologies to modern christian monotheism.

Isn't scientific research also a hope of "explaining the unexplained"? Lots of people have come up with theories of specific dynamics that govern the universe without being able to prove their origin, and people liked this idea. And so over time, science has evolved from the original voodoo to modern scientific methodology.

Oh, and Christianity isn't the only religion. There's many more out there, and some of them are as popular as ever.

Member Avatar for joshSCH

I chose christianity in my example b/c it is the most popular today.

As for science.. The purpose of science is to explain phenomena that occur. Science is not a bunch of cock-and-bull theories that people simply 'believe'. Every single scientific law has actually gone through rigorous tests.. And unlike religion, science has actually been proven true time and time again. Even scientific theories have gone through many tests.


I don't think you really know what you're talking about.. Science has been backed up and proven; Religion has not.

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