Homework Help Announcement in PHP Forum

[ShawnCplus]

Could the Homework Help announcement in the C++ forum also be added to the PHP forum. I doubt it'll stem the flow of begging or spoonfeeding - which is becoming a growing problem - but it wouldn't hurt.

[Will Gresham]

+1 There are too many posts where a block of code is posted without any real comments or additions info.

How will people learn if the are given all the answers?

[Narue]

>I doubt it'll stem the flow of begging or spoonfeeding - which
>is becoming a growing problem - but it wouldn't hurt.
IMO, all of those announcements and stickies are completely ineffective for fixing the problem. All they do is make it easier for mods to justify punitive action.

[ShawnCplus]

>I doubt it'll stem the flow of begging or spoonfeeding - which
>is becoming a growing problem - but it wouldn't hurt.
IMO, all of those announcements and stickies are completely ineffective for fixing the problem. All they do is make it easier for mods to justify punitive action.

Frankly, it's I'm not even trying to target new posters with it. I'm trying to target the existing members with 100+ posts that are still spoonfeeding the newbies. Perhaps it could even be specifically targeted to say something like "Do not give help to those who do not show effort." instead of the other way around ("We won't help those who do not show effort")

[WaltP]

IMAO spoonfeeding should be an offense. But the Rules as written allow it. This has been discussed before and while spoonfeeding was not encouraged, what could we really do about it? Infracting is too harsh but that's the only 'punishment' we have.

[sknake]

IMAO spoonfeeding should be an offense. But the Rules as written allow it. This has been discussed before and while spoonfeeding was not encouraged, what could we really do about it? Infracting is too harsh but that's the only 'punishment' we have.

Who cares? If one of the daniweb solvers wants to answer a homework question with full code then let them do it. The only person losing out is the person doing the homework since they never learned the topic. "Just because I think this guy is lazy and needs to do his own homework but XXXXXXX solved it, i'm going to infract him." -- doesn't make sense to me.

Bring on the downvotes because i'm sure I stand alone on this.

[ShawnCplus]

Who cares? If one of the daniweb solvers wants to answer a homework question with full code then let them do it. The only person losing out is the person doing the homework since they never learned the topic. "Just because I think this guy is lazy and needs to do his own homework but XXXXXXX solved it, i'm going to infract him." -- doesn't make sense to me.

Bring on the downvotes because i'm sure I stand alone on this.

It's not just the OP, it's the entire community because now there isn't a nice archive of knowledge of how the OP arrived at a solution. There's just the question and the answer.

It's the difference between showing your work or not when solving a math problem.

[sknake]

IMAO spoonfeeding should be an offense. But the Rules as written allow it. This has been discussed before and while spoonfeeding was not encouraged, what could we really do about it? Infracting is too harsh but that's the only 'punishment' we have.

It's not just the OP, it's the entire community because now there isn't a nice archive of knowledge of how the OP arrived at a solution. There's just the question and the answer.

It's the difference between showing your work or not when solving a math problem.

I disagree. Sometimes I answer questions with pure code, as the code speaks for itself:
http://www.daniweb.com/forums/post1098395.html#post1098395
http://www.daniweb.com/forums/post1095425.html#post1095425

So with that reasoning, again, I should be infracted.

[ShawnCplus]

I disagree. Sometimes I answer questions with pure code, as the code speaks for itself:
http://www.daniweb.com/forums/post1098395.html#post1098395
http://www.daniweb.com/forums/post1095425.html#post1095425

So with that reasoning, again, I should be infracted.

IMO, yes. Teach a man to fish, and all that jazz coupled with the fact that I despise giving out answers to people that don't show any effort at all. I understand that there are situations when one needs help immediately but in most cases it takes just as much time to solve it on your own than it does to mooch off a forum and wait for a reply.

[sknake]

Did you bother to read:
http://www.daniweb.com/forums/post1095425.html#post1095425

The OP took my code-only response and elaborated on the reasoning for the logic. Not only did he understand it, he posted back a "more detailed description" PLUS another way of going about it, although I wouldn't suggest the method he described. Infracting regulars for something like that will serve no purpose other than to tick them off.... but if you just want to tick off a regular then start -rep'ing him. No need for an infraction.

[ShawnCplus]

Did you bother to read:
http://www.daniweb.com/forums/post1095425.html#post1095425

The OP took my code-only response and elaborated on the reasoning for the logic. Not only did he understand it, he posted back a "more detailed description" PLUS another way of going about it, although I wouldn't suggest the method he described. Infracting regulars for something like that will serve no purpose other than to tick them off.... but if you just want to tick off a regular then start -rep'ing him. No need for an infraction.

The OP in that thread also showed effort from the start, it wasn't a copy/paste from his homework assignment without any other posts in the thread.

[WaltP]

Did you bother to read:
http://www.daniweb.com/forums/post1095425.html#post1095425

The OP took my code-only response and elaborated on the reasoning for the logic. Not only did he understand it, he posted back a "more detailed description" PLUS another way of going about it....

Count the number of times someone was spoonfed an answer. Then count the number of times they have elaborated as your "student" did. The ratio is extremely small and not worth the chance of a cut&paste.

Who cares?

I do, for one. Especially when I've attempted to help them understand the process and some newbie coder with a 'look what I can do' ego hands them a complete program on the next post. He not only teaches the OP that this is where you get your homework done free, the time we spend giving a helpful answer has just been wasted.

I disagree. Sometimes I answer questions with pure code, as the code speaks for itself:
http://www.daniweb.com/forums/post1098395.html#post1098395
http://www.daniweb.com/forums/post1095425.html#post1095425

So with that reasoning, again, I should be infracted.

Will that code work dropped right into the OP's code? Then yes. If the code doesn't answer the question directly but solves a similar problem, and the OP can use it to solve his problem, then no.

[sknake]

>>The OP in that thread also showed effort from the start
Oh. That explains it.

Should I start PM'ing you my responses to see if they are descriptive enough, and to see if the OP showed enough effort, and to ask if the OP is going to learn from it, and to ask if it will contribute to the knowledge base by showing how you reached a solution? So wouldn't it just be easier if you approved every single post? Being a nazi about how and what other people post isn't going to solve the problem.

It seems Rashakil shares your same mindset:
http://www.daniweb.com/forums/post1008454.html#post1008454

After that post I will go out of my way to help anyone with a homework question where Rashakil posted on the thread that I would have otherwise not answered just to make him smile.

All of the arguments for or against "spoonfeeding" an answer thus far have been based on discretion, which differs among individuals. Whether you feel an answer should be given or not doesn't mean someone else was right or wrong. It means you don't agree. Downvote the post and get on with life.

[ShawnCplus]

You don't need to get so defensive. I'm not singling you out. You posted an example of one of your posts and I gave my response. And it's obvious when a user shows effort and when they don't. Suffice it to say you have your opinion and I have mine. Anyway, could a mod for the PHP forum please chime in regarding the original topic of this thread.

[Nick Evan]

Anyway, could a mod for the PHP forum please chime in regarding the original topic of this thread.

Only Dani (and Happygeek?) are able to add announcements. Stickies are a different story.

I reckon every teacher/lecturer etc should join Daniweb and check out posts related to assignments that they've given. That way the little cheating blighters will be caught out and FAILED.

Although I see both sides of the argument, it's difficult to judge sometimes how much help to give. You could be addressing a 'duffer' who's just trying to patch a script left over from a previous developer, in which case, I reckon a helping hand is fine. However, the person could be a sneaky undercover student inflitrating this site under the guise of an innocent wide-eyed newbie. They should be dragged out, shot and slapped - in that order.

On balance, I'd hate to think that somebody would throw snowballs at me (downvote) for giving someone an extra millilitre of help. A negative rep stating 'why' would be better.

[cwarn23]

Well in my opinion I don't mind helping with others homework as long as they are willing to put the effort to piecing the puzzle together. So even if there was an announcement and if people read it people would still post their homework. Why? Because there aren't very many alternatives. I'm not defending those people but am just saying what they would do. My suggestion? Make a general "Read before posting" sticky and if you don't want to help anybody with their homework then just point to them that there is a sticky about what they are doing and simply don't help them out. Let somebody else who doesn't mind helping with homework to help them out. But usually the homework stuff is easy (usually) and is partially what powers the amount of topics in the php forum.

So correct me on this sentence but if you don't like people posting homework wouldn't it be best to tell them to read the sticky about no homework allowed and perhaps let somebody else help out if they have free time?

[WaltP]

My suggestion? Make a general "Read before posting" sticky ...

You mean like the announcement We only give homework help to those who show effort and the sticky post Read This Before Posting? What a good idea! Think that will help? :icon_wink:

They don't seem to help in the C/C++ forum...

[cwarn23]

You mean like the announcement We only give homework help to those who show effort and the sticky post Read This Before Posting? What a good idea! Think that will help? :icon_wink:

They don't seem to help in the C/C++ forum...

Didn't realize it had been tried and failed before. If announcements don't work the only thing I can think of is having above the message box where they type their post is a cartoon providing these messages. That is a long shot but I'm clueless.

[WaltP]

Didn't realize it had been tried and failed before. If announcements don't work the only thing I can think of is having above the message box where they type their post is a cartoon providing these messages. That is a long shot but I'm clueless.

Information about CODE Tags is actually written on the background of the message box where they type their message! Any guess as to the percentage of new posters that miss all 6 (at my count) places the tags are mentioned?

[cwarn23]

Any guess as to the percentage of new posters that miss all 6 (at my count) places the tags are mentioned?

Perhaps 20% of new users in the php forum. However they/dani missed a spot. When you reply to a 4 year old topic and your not signed in I don't think there is the code tags message in the textbox. So yea that is where the problem with the code tags lies.

[WaltP]

Perhaps 20% of new users in the php forum. However they/dani missed a spot. When you reply to a 4 year old topic and your not signed in I don't think there is the code tags message in the textbox. So yea that is where the problem with the code tags lies.

a) I'm more familiar with C/C++. and it's more like 80-90%.
b) You cannot post without being signed in. Try it.
c) I just looked at the very first post in the PHP section. The Code tag message is in the text box.

[pedantic]
And
-- your is possessive -- it's your problem.
-- you're is the contraction of you are
FYI :icon_wink:
[/pedantic]

[Nick Evan]

[pedantic]
And
-- your is possessive -- it's your problem.
-- you're is the contraction of you are
FYI :icon_wink:
[/pedantic]

Here's a tutorial :D

[Narue]

"Every time you spell it this way, a dolphin gets run over by a jet ski." Classic. :)

[cwarn23]

c) I just looked at the very first post in the PHP section. The Code tag message is in the text box.

I just took another look myself and something in the past month must have changed because once there use to be that message only when signed in. But I see that has all changed now. I guess I should check out these things more often.

As for solving the problem of homework posts, the only thing I can think of at the moment is embedding text to speech software in the forum so the forum speeks to the user and actually tells the user to use code tags and not to post homework. I guess you couldn't make it much clearer than that. I think java provides free text to speech software.

Nut and sledgehammer spring to mind. I suppose my previous ironic post flew above the parapets. Who cares?

I mean, if somebody gives a little too much help from time to time? Does it affect the total entropy of the universe? The more seasoned contributors will usually tell a newbie to post his/her code first, whereas a young buck trying to carve a name for himself on the forum will try to provide a complete solution - which will inevitably be full of holes, which aforementioned seasoned contributors will identify, which will thus propagate further discussion. I reckon it's just natural progression. Newbies become young bucks become seasoned contributors.

[cwarn23]

Nut and sledgehammer spring to mind. I suppose my previous ironic post flew above the parapets. Who cares?

I mean, if somebody gives a little too much help from time to time? Does it affect the total entropy of the universe? The more seasoned contributors will usually tell a newbie to post his/her code first, whereas a young buck trying to carve a name for himself on the forum will try to provide a complete solution - which will inevitably be full of holes, which aforementioned seasoned contributors will identify, which will thus propagate further discussion. I reckon it's just natural progression. Newbies become young bucks become seasoned contributors.

That I would agree with and as a natural progression there isn't much that you can really do to change it although there are things that you can try and probably won't work how we want them to work.

"Every time you spell it this way, a dolphin gets run over by a jet ski." Classic.

[random]
Me: ima dolphin shaver.
You: What? Dolphins dont have hair?
Me: Yeah... obviously cos I've just shaved them.
[/random]

Getting back to the point of this thread - 'homework'. Does the motive for starting a thread make a difference to the help that should be offered? I'm a hobbyist, so any help passed in my direction will not make me any money or help me pass any examinations. Am I (attempts at solving the problem myself aside) more or less deserving of help than somebody with a critical interest (e.g. somebody in the IT business or a student)? Is this even relevant - should help be provided piecemeal (even cryptically) regardless of the motive?

As Daniweb is a 'catch-all' site, to my mind it tends to draw reasonably 'low-level' enquiries - well, that's my take from the pHp forum anyway. This is quite different to dedicated pHp forums, so perhaps a direct comparison is unfair, but while perusing those sites, I usually see 'real experts' busting a gut or going the extra mile to provide a solution. I don't see those contributors getting so hung up over their little trade secrets. Perhaps I'm way off here.

//NOTE
Just in case I'm misunderstood - there are amazing contributors in Daniweb's pHp forum.

[Will Gresham]

I am a student myself (technically.. on a (multiple) gap year).

I have no problem helping people, regardless of what their reason for asking.

However, if I see a post with a few lines of text detailing a vague idea of what they want, I am less likely to want to try to assist compared to a post where the OP has got some description of what they want, their current code and what the problem is.

Basically, if the poster has shown some initiative and done some research themselves, I am happy to help, otherwise they get a nice link to www.lmgtfy.com :P