Timbre of feedback (continued)

[Knightly]

This is a continuation of a discussion from another thread (it was off topic there): http://www.daniweb.com/forums/post1284369.html#post1284369

While I firmly believe that the dealings with "give me UR Codez" questions would absolutely lead to the type of responses given, there was no request for code, but a specific request for theoretical information... to wit, "...the purpose of the "public" and "private" options of a class." This isn't a request for how to implement, but why one would choose to do so.

My online history (for reference) - BBS and newsgroup discussions before the public interest in the internet was realized... Created one of the first web firms in MN to try to monetize this new "Web" thing (failed in our market as no one believed the general public would have enough access to the internet for it to pay - dangit!). Watched the net change from a place for a free exchange of information where trolls were ignored and flamewars successfully navigated past, to an abstraction of all the evils anonymity could provide.

I am a moderator on 2 filmmaking forums where I've resided and kept the peace for the past 5 years. I've specifically addressed the issue of the tenor of the responses with many of our more senior members (in addition to reminding them of their first interactions on these fora and the naivete with which they asked questions) to remind them that it's better for the community to nudge people toward better questioning than beat them off with a stick if they ask questions in a greedy and annoying way.

Perusing this forum shows a wealth of posts with great technical answers (and the obligatory Internet beatings as well), but members with nearly 4000 posts should be a bit more approachable by neophytes to encourage their interaction on this site and fuel the next generation of members who are here to perpetuate that same type of interaction.

I understand that I'm new to this site, but I've been participating in the Internet since I had a FIDONET address. While I may not know this specific boards denizens, I've read the FAQ, I've read the Welcome and they don't framass with the first thread I happened across here. If the poster with the "You're lazy" LMGTFY link had been a newbie, I wouldn't be as critical and probably wouldn't have been raised the defensive nature of the other member I've been talking with... but it was, and that was my first impression of the site. Had I not been in charge of dealing with these types of responses on other fora, I'd never have pointed it out as a problem, and it wouldn't be known about in order to have the possibility of fixing it.

This is a great forum. My first impressions were not good.

[VernonDozier]

I agree that the first response to the thread was too severe. The OP of that thread, judging by his other threads, does not appear to be a "Give me teh codez" type of poster. That particular thread had a starting post that did not demonstrate effort, which doesn't mean that no effort was expended. Effort could have been expended and gone down several dead ends. It's not the type of question, in my opinion, that instantly solvable by a quick google search.

The problem is that this forum has been really flooded, for a variety of reasons, with no-effort posters. I won't get into the reasons here, as they have been discussed elsewhere. I think I speak for many when I say that veteran posters on this forum, myself included, have gotten quite jaded and no longer give the benefit of the doubt as far as effort, which is a shame, but is human nature. Thus the link that FBody posted on how to post intelligent questions so people know you're not just a no-effort freeloader. It sucks when you have put in effort and people accuse you of not putting in effort, and it equally sucks when you craft a well-written response and you find out the OP is completely unwilling to put in effort. I think most of us are really slanting towards the assumption that a thread-starter has not put in any effort until proven otherwise because, unfortunately, it appears to be true.

So one must distinguish themselves from the riff-raff. That means posting a first post that PROVES you have put in some effort somewhere. Even if you are completely clueless, post something to show a real attempt. FBody's link explains how and should be pinned.

[Knightly]

I did find that an interesting read and agree with most of it. I do tend toward the optimist with regards to folks asking questions though (grandparents, parents and spouse are/were educators, it rubs off)... If you're really bored someday I have pudding proof of the technique over at http://www.indietalk.com (I'm Knightly there too)- read through my posts, I have several examples of both steering new community members away from their life of non-searchingness and help to set a positive example for other community members as well. The two main topics in that community that are asked over and over again are "What camera should I buy" and "How do I get the film look." I've answered that question often, then provided links to places where it's been asked before. If I didn't have the time to answer the question, I either provided links or asked for examples of the results the poster was trying to achieve, which usually got more precise questions without resorting to talking down to them... and often the initial response took less time than berating them for bad questioning.

I agree that folks enter the forum communities simply looking for a quick answer, but providing them that answer in a friendly way keeps them around and provides more opportunity to correct those undesirable behaviors. Running them off keeps the Jun horde outside the gate, sitting them down for dinner allows for much better community building (perhaps the Jun horde was a bad example ;) )

[VernonDozier]

I do tend toward the optimist with regards to folks asking questions... I either provided links or asked for examples of the results the poster was trying to achieve, which usually got more precise questions without resorting to talking down to them... and often the initial response took less time than berating them for bad questioning...but providing them that answer in a friendly way keeps them around and provides more opportunity to correct those undesirable behaviors. Running them off keeps the Jun horde outside the gate, sitting them down for dinner allows for much better community building (perhaps the Jun horde was a bad example ;) )

It's been an evolutionary process for me. I used to always give the benefit of the doubt till eventually it just dawned on me that there were a lot of people out there just wasting my time and I felt like a real sucker. Then I became a real pessimist, and now I'm sort of in the middle, though as mentioned, I'm tending cynical until proven otherwise. At any rate, beat-downs should be constructive if given at all, but sometimes a plain old RTFM is just so fitting. Everyone has to find their own style. Some people get, some people can get it if you only "invite them to dinner" as you say and some will never get it and are just a drain. I had no idea whether the "Jun Horde" reference was a good reference or not till I looked it up (see? RTFM. Google's my friend). Seems like a good analogy.

If I were designing my own forum, I'd gear it towards professionals helping other professionals, newbies welcome and helped and not made fum of, but a definite, well-posted code of conduct/expectations where people who needed it were chased out without mercy, but people who meant well and made a few mistakes weren't tarred and feathered for life. Basically a programing "community" as opposed to a "post quick, never to return again" type place. This forum IMO has been catering too much to the drunken masses ASKING questions as opposed to the far smaller group who actually ANSWER the questions.

But it's not my forum, it's Dani's and it's going to go in the direction she wants it to go, so at the end of the day everyone has to make a decision as to whether they want to be a part of it or not, and how much to participate.

[Knightly]

Works for me, I just wanted to make sure the outside viewpoint of someone else was heard, too many times there is no feedback that is constructive, just "This Sux" kind of stuff, which helps no-one. The risk is turning away potentially great community members through misunderstanding and misinterpretation, or by lumping them in with the unwashed masses. On this forum, I will more than likely be a reader/ asker as most folks here have much more recent/relevant experience programming than I... although I know Applescript like a mofo! And my old-school BASIC is completely engrained ;)

But given opportunities and seeing questions I can answer, I'll certainly be one to throw down, my past 6 years of posts show that... they're just not here :)