Anyone here looking into starting a Hydrogen Fuel station with the recent releases of GM and Honda's Fuel Cell vehicles? I have checked into it myself, and you can get a station going for relatively small amount. The next question I have for you is this: If you have looked into building one, do you think that personal (home models) hydrogen fuel systems will crush having an actual grid? Throw me some of you thoughts or ideas!!
itdupuis 19
Posting Whiz
Recommended Answers
Jump to Postit is also created with electricity and water, which is quite eco-friendly (depending on how the electricity is generated)!
Not commercially. Too expensive to get anywhere near a decent production volume.
And you need large nuclear power stations to get enough electricity, which aren't being built because the greenies don't …
Jump to PostThe largest loss of energy is in the voltage drop across the electrodes of an electrolytic cell. A matter of physics, nothing you can do about it. It simply means that over 60% of the electrical energy will be wasted as heat.
On top of that hydrogen is one …
Jump to PostTalking to my physics professors and fellow students, lithium ion battery electric cars or compressed air powered cars are much more feasible than hydrogen cars. They use electricity more directly.
Hydrogen fuel is a convenient buzzword for politicos. An easy thing to sell to an uneducated public. Oh, we …
Jump to Postand you'd need to have a very long 380KV powerlead to plug that car into the electrical grid to power that hydrogen generator ;)
Jump to PostI wonder what the ecnomics of driving an all electric car are. Electricity is certainly not cheap, close to $0.1 per kwh in LA.
Then there is the capital cost of the battery, Lithium Ion would be the best for size and weight, but might add close to $30,000 …
All 27 Replies
Ezzaral 2,714
Posting Sage Team Colleague Featured Poster
No and no. Hydrogen is not currently a feasible replacement solution.
vegaseat 1,735
DaniWeb's Hypocrite Team Colleague
How would you generate hydrogen locally? It is difficult to store and handle. Even small leaks can cause massive explosions.
ZZucker 342
Practically a Master Poster
I just saw that in my LA neighborhood:
$4.99 for a gallon (3.8 liters) of regular gasoline.
I guess the fuel wars are on in the good old USA!
For our friends in Europe, that's 0.85 Euro per liter.
jwenting 1,889
duckman Team Colleague
to pay that little for gas...
Filled up last week for €1.65 per liter, and it's gone up 2 cents since.
And next month we're going to get another 3 cent tax hike per liter, on top of the regular price increase.
Finance minister needs it to pay for the pay raise he's given himself...
As to fuelwars, Spanish truckers paralysed the entire country for almost 2 weeks until they were forced out of their trucks by riot police who then confiscated the trucks and drove them to an impound lot.
selfhelpebooks -6
Posting Pro
Hydrogen fuel can be promising for our future generations. Since hydrogen is the most abundant source of atoms in the universe, it can be used to generate massive amounts of power to perhaps approach near-superluminal velocities. However, we still have to figure out how to fuse it to create it as fuel. Perhaps one day.
Lardmeister 461
Posting Virtuoso
Hydrogen fuel can be promising for our future generations. Since hydrogen is the most abundant source of atoms in the universe, it can be used to generate massive amounts of power to perhaps approach near-superluminal velocities. However, we still have to figure out how to fuse it to create it as fuel. Perhaps one day.
This thread talks about reacting hydrogen with oxygen in cars for fuel. Not quite the same as copying the sun.
Lardmeister 461
Posting Virtuoso
to pay that little for gas...
Filled up last week for €1.65 per liter, and it's gone up 2 cents since.And next month we're going to get another 3 cent tax hike per liter, on top of the regular price increase.
Finance minister needs it to pay for the pay raise he's given himself...As to fuelwars, Spanish truckers paralysed the entire country for almost 2 weeks until they were forced out of their trucks by riot police who then confiscated the trucks and drove them to an impound lot.
I understand in India folks were laying down on the streets to protest high fuel prices. Not quite sure how this would lower the price? I think in Europe gasoline is taxed quite highly to encourage the use of public transportation.
In my neighborhood most people still drive monsterous cars, Hummers and pickup-trucks that get from 5 to 10 miles per gallon. It is those jerks that drive up the price of gasoline.
I just read that American railroads run mostly on diesel fuel and can move 20 times more weight/freight then trucks on the same amount of fuel.
itdupuis 19
Posting Whiz
Here is the current situation in the US. Southern California, Orlando (and somewhere in Missouri) launched small Hydrogen grids to go along with the February release of Honda's fuel cell vehicle. GM will also be releasing their version quite soon (if it has'nt already) which will boost Hydrogen production. Not including the price of land and a bulding, a person can buy all of the equipment needed to create, store and pump hydrogen fuel for approximately $130,000 (USD). Now the kicker to this is that there are also home models for sale that will allow a user to create their own fuel (of coarse not as effeciently as a larger unit), and those are running approximately $15,000.
Someone had asked about safety. From all of the research that I have seen so far, these systems are quite stable. The products they use for the dispensing of hydrogen are far more superior to the way that your ol' 87 octane is pumped. So, I am going to be that there would not be any Hydrogen grids up at all if it was not safe.
While I do not think that Hydrogen will replace our oil, diesel and petro immediately, I do think that there will be a very good market for it. And perhaps somewhere down the line their could be an economy change pointing to Hydorgen's favor. But that is simply my opinion, and I am loving hearing what everyone else has to say.
So, back to my original question; Is there anyone out there who is looking in to doing a project such as this? I would really like to link up with someone to share ideas and thoughts!
itdupuis 19
Posting Whiz
By the way, the following is a great link for anyone interesting in checking it out. It has information on hydrogen safety, and a variety of links for lots of information!
itdupuis 19
Posting Whiz
I will only bump this topic one last time....then I will let it go! I am just anxious to know if there is anyone else working with this!
jwenting 1,889
duckman Team Colleague
hydrogen is generated from natural gas... That releases a lot of CO2 and bad things, plus takes tons of electricity generated by burning more gas, oil, or coal.
Hardly "ecofriendly"...
itdupuis 19
Posting Whiz
it is also created with electricity and water, which is quite eco-friendly (depending on how the electricity is generated)!
Ezzaral 2,714
Posting Sage Team Colleague Featured Poster
it is also created with electricity and water, which is quite eco-friendly (depending on how the electricity is generated)!
You're better off leaving the electricity needed for hydrolysis as electricity rather than expending it to create a less-efficient energy form.
itdupuis 19
Posting Whiz
why would you say that is is less effecient? Most of these hydrogen systems use solar-panels, and wind machines to create the electricity needed for the production of hydrogen....there are so many ways that this is a good thing......you should research it!
jwenting 1,889
duckman Team Colleague
it is also created with electricity and water, which is quite eco-friendly (depending on how the electricity is generated)!
Not commercially. Too expensive to get anywhere near a decent production volume.
And you need large nuclear power stations to get enough electricity, which aren't being built because the greenies don't want nuclear power (or any power, come to think...).
itdupuis 19
Posting Whiz
Give me some time to organize some materials....i will post them when I get a chance...if you are interested
jwenting 1,889
duckman Team Colleague
no need. Given a little time (I'm rusty on my chemistry) I can calculate how much electricity you need to create enough hydrogen gas through electrolysis that you can sell it.
It's a LOT. Take into account the line losses between the powerstation and the production facility and it gets far worse.
Take into account the inefficiency of powerstations when burning fuel compared to car engines and it gets worse still.
Ezzaral 2,714
Posting Sage Team Colleague Featured Poster
itdupuis, you might find this thread over on Ars Technica interesting: http://episteme.arstechnica.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/770002407831/m/487008072931
vegaseat 1,735
DaniWeb's Hypocrite Team Colleague
The largest loss of energy is in the voltage drop across the electrodes of an electrolytic cell. A matter of physics, nothing you can do about it. It simply means that over 60% of the electrical energy will be wasted as heat.
On top of that hydrogen is one of the worst things to store. It takes up a huge volume and will not stay liquid under pressure alone. Being the smallest molecule, it has a tendency to leak where normal gases would not. It takes only 2% hydrogen in the air to form a very explosive mixture.
I have worked with hydrogen gas for 40 years of my professional life, and believe me it does not leave any room for junk science or other mistakes.
itdupuis
commented:
very informative, thanks for your expertise! +1
jwenting 1,889
duckman Team Colleague
and that doesn't even take into consideration the energy inefficient production methods which require far more energy to be put in than burning that hydrogen in your car could ever hope to get out again.
GrimJack 1,414
Posting Maven Featured Poster
Drill Here.
Drill Now.
Pay Less.
:icon_razz:
What a lot of people west of the Mississippi are just now finding out is that when they bought their property, they did not buy the mineral rights and mineral rights trump property rights. If there is something (like oil) under your property, they (the ubiquitous 'they') can erect a well as long as they promise to restore the property when they are through. Recently, a lot of oil wells that had been shut down for 50 or 60 years are being restarted because it is now cost effective with the price of oil so high. These old well are all through southern California and east through AZ, NM, TX and so on.
Dave Sinkula 2,398
long time no c Team Colleague
itdupuis 19
Posting Whiz
Well, here is my thought about the issue.....If it is not something that is feasable, why are so many of these fuel cell vehicles being produced by car giants? It seems to me that several of you have way more expertise in the production method of hydrogen than I do, and I respect all of the opinions given so far. Perhaps for me the idea of a new dependability is very attractive. I would much rather be dependent on ourselves for energy rather than lining the pockets of middle eastern oil tycoons (not that we don't have our tycoons here~USA~).
My prime reason for creating this post was to see who had knowledge and interest on this topic, and I am glad that several people have taken the time to share! I will definately be looking at this from a different perspective, and I hope that this will help me make a more educated decision when the time comes. Thanks to all, and I will continue my research on this!
sneekula 969
Nearly a Posting Maven
Talking to my physics professors and fellow students, lithium ion battery electric cars or compressed air powered cars are much more feasible than hydrogen cars. They use electricity more directly.
Hydrogen fuel is a convenient buzzword for politicos. An easy thing to sell to an uneducated public. Oh, we have plenty of hydrogen! Many of them confuse it with water.
Hydrogen fuel cells have been around for a long time, not much innovation there! The innovation will have to be in the storage of hydrogen gas and there are all sorts of physical limitations. Actually, the nickel hydride rechargables used by the present hybrid cars are a modification of the hydrogen fuel cell, but nickel is just too heavy to be practicable for hydrogen storage. Also, any of this technology has a limited lifetime since the nickel gets inactive with use. When you drive a hybrid car get used to shelling out 3-5k for a replacement battery every 3 years.
One way around the hydrogen gas storage would be to generate hydrogen in the vehicle by reacting calcium hydride pellets with water in a controlled manner. However, making calcium hydride needs some pretty fancy equipment.
jwenting 1,889
duckman Team Colleague
and you'd need to have a very long 380KV powerlead to plug that car into the electrical grid to power that hydrogen generator ;)
Ene Uran 638
Posting Virtuoso
I wonder what the ecnomics of driving an all electric car are. Electricity is certainly not cheap, close to $0.1 per kwh in LA.
Then there is the capital cost of the battery, Lithium Ion would be the best for size and weight, but might add close to $30,000 to each car, and also would need to be replaced every 3 to 5 years.
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