Lets talk energy - Page 4

[zeroth]

Consider this: Where I live we make electricity with a dam. The dam was built in the 1950s and has been delivering current for over 50 years. Do you think it's paid for by now?

So why do I still have to pay for electricity? And at a much higher rate than ever?

Elementary Watson, supply and demand.

Aha! So what makes ya'll think these NEW sources of energy are going to save you anything? Anybody that invests all those millions into new sources of energy are going to sock it to you once they get the taste of MONEY.

btw, this is a big dam. It supplies the total energy for several counties.

[sneekula]

I looked up Hoover Dam, it has a capacity of 2,000,000 kw and could potentially charge 40,000 electric cars.

[ConradMc]

you got to be kidding you honestly think greenhouse gases is a joke. people that dont believe that greenhouse gases such as CO2 cause heat insulation in the atmosphere dont know enough about chemistry to be talking about it.

Let me guess you think the trees will take care of it.

In truth, GG are not as bad as the government has told us. The amount of them doesnt account for serious damage. Most of them come from nature anyway. It would take 20% of world deforestation to have a significant impact on the planet, and about 90% of CO2 is respired and converted to O2 by algae; not trees. Also, for the past 20 years+, the environment has been warming, get the Ozone is reparing. Why? We are in an interglacial period several million years late and it has happened many times throughout history.

[steven woodman]

In truth, GG are not as bad as the government has told us. The amount of them doesnt account for serious damage. Most of them come from nature anyway. It would take 20% of world deforestation to have a significant impact on the planet, and about 90% of CO2 is respired and converted to O2 by algae; not trees. Also, for the past 20 years+, the environment has been warming, get the Ozone is reparing. Why? We are in an interglacial period several million years late and it has happened many times throughout history.

This is not a global warming thread! Enough talk about it. There is not one person on this earth that knows for sure how the world works. NO ONE. There are reactions and forces occurring that we cant even come close to understanding. That dosent mean we should fill the air, land and water with garbage. Whether it be CO2 or plastic its garbage, and we are better off leaving the planet to do its own thing with as little interruption from humans as possible.

Lets talk energy!

[steven woodman]

Lower Churchill in Newfoundland has huge potential. There will be enough energy coming from the hydro generation stations to sell to the US for years and years.

"The Lower Churchill Project consists of two of the best undeveloped hydroelectric sites in North America: Gull Island, located 225 kilometers downstream from the existing Churchill Falls Generating Station; and Muskrat Falls, located 60 kilometers downstream from Gull Island. The 2,000-megawatt project at Gull Island has the potential to produce an average of 11.9 terawatt hours of energy annually. The 824 megawatt project at Muskrat Falls has the potential to produce an average of 4.8 terawatt hours a year."

[GrimJack]

Creating hydrogen using the DC generated by solar cells is highly inefficient. Also hydrogen would take up the largest volume of any gas, is dangerous to handle and difficult to store.

I was responding to a suggestion to store the excess energy as compressed gas - which do you think is least efficient.
I suggested storing it as H because of H-fuel cell cars; if you want to talk efficiency, consider cracking water with excess power vs. cracking water with power that everyone is competing for. Hydrogen is about 1000 times less dangerous than gasoline; compare storing H with storing air. Storing H as a liquid is not a new or unusual technology considering that is part of what puts our rockets into space. (I am doing a little hand-waving here so that we do not get into a discussion of parahydrogen). We already have a pretty strong infrastructure that carries LNG all over the country.

[GrimJack]

I looked up Hoover Dam, it has a capacity of 2,000,000 kw and could potentially charge 40,000 electric cars.

2gigawatts per ??.

[GrimJack]

Zeroeth - wrt your .sig - Everyone remembers who climbed it 2nd - Tenzing Norgay. His was the only picture on the peak because he did not know how to operate the camera and Sir Hillary did not think the location was conducive to lessons. It is believed that the only reason he was not knighted along with the other 2 members of the team was due to political influence from the Indian gov.

[Dave Sinkula]

Hydrogen is about 1000 times less dangerous than gasoline

Sorry, I just couldn't resist.

[edit]Uncle Sam’s Multi-Trillion-Dollar Oil Lockup

[GrimJack]

Sorry, I just couldn't resist.

I know - I was expecting it. That is an example of why you do not use magnesium as the base for a paint. There was a pretty thorough examination of the catastrophe - the 2 main results were the flames were the wrong color to be hydrogen burning and the skin of the Hindenburg almost completely burned up and the fragments that survived were coated with Mg.

Current hydrogen explosion picture.

[Ene Uran]

2gigawatts per ??.

Good grief, even I know that a watt is the product of voltage and current at any given time. No need to have a per there.

[Dave Sinkula]

Interesting: Burning the Tide

[Ene Uran]

I looked up Hoover Dam, it has a capacity of 2,000,000 kw and could potentially charge 40,000 electric cars.

You need to add "at any given time"

[Ene Uran]

Interesting: Burning the Tide

Very good article Dave, thanks! Clean energy in the future will have to come from wind, wave, solar and bio. Ultimately they are all effects of the sun.

[sneekula]

That is not hydrogen burning that you see in the rocket picture, it is ammonium perchlorate from the boosters.

[sneekula]

I know - I was expecting it. That is an example of why you do not use magnesium as the base for a paint. There was a pretty thorough examination of the catastrophe - the 2 main results were the flames were the wrong color to be hydrogen burning and the skin of the Hindenburg almost completely burned up and the fragments that survived were coated with Mg.

Current hydrogen explosion picture.

There we go, let's store the extra daytime energy as magnesium.

[ZZucker]

Good grief, even I know that a watt is the product of voltage and current at any given time. No need to have a per there.

Elementary physics! My boyfriend hates junk science and the people that spread it.

[GrimJack]

Good grief, even I know that a watt is the product of voltage and current at any given time. No need to have a per there.

Are you playing 'gotcha' or having a discussion?

[GrimJack]

Interesting: Burning the Tide

That is pretty cool and looks safer than the tidal current generators.

[GrimJack]

There we go, let's store the extra daytime energy as magnesium.

uh, uh, wtf??

[GrimJack]

Elementary physics! My boyfriend hates junk science and the people that spread it.

Heh,heh does your bf hang here - there could be plenty for him to do. Elementary physics, elementary mistake - you gotta problem with that?

[GrimJack]

That is not hydrogen burning that you see in the rocket picture, it is ammonium perchlorate from the boosters.

Thanks! Yeah, it was a pretty picture and I was in the middle of my research into single stage rocket fuel (digressing from the fuel cell stuff) - have you heard about the tripropellants? Lithium and fluorine with hydrogen - way too complicated but pretty effective.

[GrimJack]

Back to actual energy discussions

[steven woodman]

(i havent had a chance to read that article yet grim, as i am at work right now)

I just had a thought:

has anyone seen these air hog toys. They have a piston and the basics mechanisms of a combustion engine but they run on compressed air you have to pump into them. These toys can really go but for short periods of time. Does anyone think that extreme high pressure air in carbon fiber tanks could be developed to power vehicles. Why or why not?

[steven woodman]

Never mind, after searching, i found that there is a air powered car scheduled to be released this year and it will have a carbon fiber tank.

Geez, im way behind. You think you have a good and then find out it was done 70 years ago.

Check this out

[GrimJack]

Oh, yeah! I forgot all those WWII 'silent running' films with torpedoes and the modern conversion of torps to SCUBA use. That also explains the upthread reference to storing excess energy as compressed air. Good find - I don't think it will ever be practical but the more things we throw at the wall, the more likely something will stick.

[bumsfeld]

"The California crunch really is the result of not enough power-generating plants and then not enough power to power the power of generating plants."
(famous quote from George W. Bush)

If they had nuclear power plants this would not have happened.

[GrimJack]

They have a couple already - Diablo Canyon, near San Luis Obispo, and San Onofre, about midway between Los Angeles and San Diego. Nuclear units at both plants use ocean water for cooling.

[sneekula]

Well, with the price of petrol getting closer to $2 per gallon, it looks like electric cars are out the window again. Unless it's just a preelection day special by Dick Cheney and friends.

[Salem]

Just 6 tiny dots
And 8% is old news.

> Well, with the price of petrol getting closer to $2 per gallon, it looks like electric cars are out the window again
Try to plan more than a few weeks in advance. It's not going to stay like that forever. Consider the recent events as an early warning call for things to come.