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I think we need to be careful about generalising too far, and be cautious to qualify the statements we make.

Whilst I'd hold some sympathy with the view you've expressed in light of current global issues, and while I'd be mindful that in years gone by the exporting of Christian 'missionaries' to other countries and cultures has historically had a MUCH greater Global impact than the current situation of spasmodic Islamic extremism, I'd also have to accept the following:

* Such things are NOT descriptive of the Islamic world. Most followers of that faith do not endorse such activities.
* Such things are NOT necessarily formally or surreptitiously endorsed by Islamic nations. They are generally the acts of individuals within those nations.
* The 'Western world' has its own 'sins', and the global impact of those is also horrendous.

We need to be careful how our comments are worded ;)


Edit: And while terrorism and genocide are both horrendous things, they are definitely very different ones.

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Hey gang...

Quick reminder: Phrases like "bullshit" and "Japs" aren't really nice things to say, and don't quite fall in line with our AUP. I think the discussion is a very healthy one, and all, but let's be sensitive of the words we use. :)

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Edit: And while terrorism and genocide are both horrendous things, they are definitely very different ones.

Really? What makes them so different to you?

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This does:

1838

Dreadful is the killing
The killing of the race,
On whose lands we squatted
Stealing all their space.

When the First Fleet landed
It wasn't before long
Kooris became angry,
Things started to go wrong.

,,,

When the blacks retorted,
White hate began to grow,
With Governor Brisbane
Declaring open go.

Even Governor Brisbane
Declared an open go.

When the blacks retorted,
Whites forgot their reason
Even Governor Brisbane
Broadcast open season.

Using the excuse of
One lone farmer speared,
Morisset caused havoc,
Tribes entire disappeared.

The Faithfulls use every trick,
Including poisoned sheep and arsenic.

Under Munn fifty blacks end up shot,
And their bodies are all left to rot.

Governor Gipps appalled orders peace;
But settlers just laugh and crimes increase.

... Station hands havoc wreak, 46
massacre fifty blacks at Myall Creek.

Gipps enraged takes a stance,
Dowling tries station hands.

Child's lone rib evidence,
whites to hang for offence.

Huge outcry sweeps the land,
Darlinghurst rescue planned,

Governor thwarts the band,
blacks still killed, underhand.

- Robert Treborlang

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Nah, I'll post again. You won't 'get it', that's for sure!

You see, the fella(s) who speared that lone farmer would today be described as 'terrorists'. And their race is 'my mob'.

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You won't 'get it', that's for sure!

Hmmm.. And you were the one saying watch what you say.

And I did understand the poem.
By the way, isn't 1838 a book? Did you get that poem out of a book?

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I didn't say there was. I think it's good that you read. I was just wondering if you got it out of a book called 1838, because I thought I remembered a book from history class called 1838. I didn't mean that it was a bad thing.

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Goodness, My mistake. In the context it was posted, in such a heated debate, it seemed fairly agressive, and looked as though it was viewed with negativity, never happier to be wrong.

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Goodness, My mistake. In the context it was posted, in such a heated debate, it seemed fairly agressive, and looked as though it was viewed with negativity, never happier to be wrong.

Ahh no problem. I kind of thought someone would take it the wrong way, but that's ok. I just wanted to know if that poem was in the book im thinking of.

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First, let me bolster my point that the US has a lot of support in its effort to secure the freedom of the Iraqi people.

Howard, Australia, Bush in the US and now, Blair in the UK were all re-elected. Doesn´t that tell all of the detractors of the Iraqi action something?

And, Catweazle, I would like to know more about the poem and ¨your mob¨ - I´m very curious about the connection.

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First, let me bolster my point that the US has a lot of support in its effort to secure the freedom of the Iraqi people.

Howard, Australia, Bush in the US and now, Blair in the UK were all re-elected. Doesn´t that tell all of the detractors of the Iraqi action something?

And, Catweazle, I would like to know more about the poem and ¨your mob¨ - I´m very curious about the connection.

The sad thing is that the UK is looked at as being our greatest allie in the war. Actually, Poland has supplied us with more troops than anyone.

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The sad thing is that the UK is looked at as being our greatest allie in the war. Actually, Poland has supplied us with more troops than anyone.

True maybe (I don't have the exact numbers) but it's not just the number of troops sent that counts (though it makes nice headlines).
Political support, logistics, etc. all help as well.

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What worries me:

- Government taking 72 percent of the economy in taxes (when you consider that customers pay all business taxes in raised purchase prices). This will eventually collapse our economy.

- Too much government meddling in daily lives.

- Liberals turning political correctness and environmentalism into state religions.

- Stress (which is the main cause of obesity, and which is mainly caused by government)

- Overkill security.

- Daylight Saving Time (which causes stress and wastes gasoline)

- Inability to buy computers without multitasking opperating systems.

- Everything in our lives going digital, causing gross incompatibilities with older materials.

- The Microsoft monopoly.

What does not worry me:

- Global warming (they don't even have any hard proof yet)

- The war in Iraq.

- All kinds of warnings that this or that "might" be harmful.

- Terrorists.

- People flying planes over Washington.

- Anything to do with sports.

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What worries me:

- Government taking 72 percent of the economy in taxes (when you consider that customers pay all business taxes in raised purchase prices). This will eventually collapse our economy.

- Too much government meddling in daily lives.

- Liberals turning political correctness and environmentalism into state religions.

- Stress (which is the main cause of obesity, and which is mainly caused by government)

- Overkill security.

- Daylight Saving Time (which causes stress and wastes gasoline)

- Inability to buy computers without multitasking opperating systems.

- Everything in our lives going digital, causing gross incompatibilities with older materials.

- The Microsoft monopoly.

What does not worry me:

- Global warming (they don't even have any hard proof yet)

- The war in Iraq.

- All kinds of warnings that this or that "might" be harmful.

- Terrorists.

- People flying planes over Washington.

- Anything to do with sports.

I couldn't agree more.

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What does not worry me:

- Global warming (they don't even have any hard proof yet)

Try living in Australia, mate! Way things are going here the whole fvcken country seems likely to turn into another Gobi desert!

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while at the same time Europe seems to be entering the deep freeze with current temperatures some 5-10 degrees below average for the time of year.

It's becoming ever more clear that there are climatic cycles at work that have a periodicity of 50-100 years, these on top of the shorter el Nino cycle and even longer cycles we haven't been able to identify yet.
At the same time it's becoming ever more clear that the "model" favoured by the "global warming" scaremongerers is fundamentally flawed. Their so-called hockeystick model collapses when treering data obtained from a single grove of pines somewhere in the western US is removed from the dataset, leading to the conclusion that there's something specific to either that specific area or those specific trees rather than the entire world.
It also collapses when the data is viewed over a longer period (centuries instead of decades), meaning that the observed increase in temperatures hinted at by the model isn't weird at all and such periodic increased and following decreases happen despite human activity (as these are observed well before the industrial revolution) rather than because of it.

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Well, anyway, the options were going to be:

1.Global warming

2.World Economy

3.Conflict

4.Crime

I would have to say global warming myself. But that doesn't mean YOU do.

World Economy. If this goes to pot, conflict and crime will surely follow. And when that happens, environmental issues like Global Warming will be left on the back burner.

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Hello,

WOW! What a thread! Glad I found this one late at night, so I can compose my thoughts here in silence, and consut the great orb of knowledge. A few thoughts, by topic:

World War II: The US was involved in WW-II well before Pearl Harbor. Lend-lease acts, US Airmen flying over in Europe for the British before Pearl Harbor, economic sactions and concerns, lending of money, and probably technology transfer. We were quite involved against Germany, and we were supporting China. Austrailia was instrumental in the ABDA (go look that up) with us, and we had to adjust our fleet to work with the Aussies and Britians (American ships are designed to be away from home for a long period of time and can self-repair... at the time British and Austrailian warcraft needed regular runs to port to re-supply... read Admiral Samuel E Morrison for more information.

Global Warming: The Earth itself goes through stages. I believe Man has an effect on pollution, and we could be doing better finding more recycling and the development of natural fuels beyond petroleum. Need to talk to the automakers on that one to push for a new design... yes I think there are arrangements with Big Oil vs. Big Car to eat up new technologies and bury them. I am not certain how to defeat that one. But I think there is more to it than just Man affecting the climate. The treehuggers do not factor in solar pulsing and other events that can heat or cool Earth irregularly.

American Imperialism: I think we have had little tastes in it: the Phillipeans, and Panama. We are now out of both. I think we had to be there for our time and carry out the missions, and now we are gone. Personally, I'd like to see us do something with the Moon.

Nation Building -- we are going to be in Iraq for some time, and I think we need to educate, enforce, and execute. We had to do this in Japan after WW-II, and it took YEARS. I think our generations over here forget the post-war challenges, and what long-term investment means. American culture wants things now. Ever get grumpy if you send an email, and you do not get a response the next hour? Or order something online, and the serial number doesn't flash up in a few minutes in your inbox? How many of you stood in line for Star Wars? Ok -- I am guilty for going to the Harry Potter book sale the night in question, but I had fun, and really enjoyed the atmosphere at the booksellers. I did not camp out for days however.

What Concerns me --

* American Civil War. I think we here in America are fighting a new kind of civil war. Blue state vs. Red State. Country is pretty divided. Dirty campaigns on both sides. I am glad Bush won, but I also feel he was not the best canidate. I did not like Kerry either. Nor Nader. I do not think you will ever find the proper canidate running for office again, mainly due to the Media's character assination on the canidate. The Media has lost truth and objectivity in favor of ratings and who can make the largest bang on the news. Just look at the Dan Rather scandal at CBS over the Bush military record. Or Heraldo Riveria. Or the guy on The Weather Channel that has to report from the eye of the hurricane and show everyone exactly what NOT to do.

But I think we have a problem here in the US: Red vs. Blue. Liberals re-writing history. Political correctness. Desire to stamp out religion in society, in particular, Christianity. Outside groups from the other side of the country hitting my local area to protest a cross on a building somewhere. Loss of local control.

I am still apalled by the Terri Shavio case. If they were in such a hurry to let her die, they should have euthanized her with dignity. After the decision to let her go, lethal injection, and it was done. The HORROR of dehydration / starvation death outshines the abuse cases in Iraq, or that dam Jackson trial. Some say she should have been saved by the state / medical community. Others believe in personal choice of the family. I personally have no problem with euthenasia, but dammit, to starve and go the way she did was such a tradegy.

* United Nations: Those rascals. I think the US should pull out and let the organization crumble to the ground. The troubles within that useless group are astounding. And right after the tusami, to have the bozo call Americans greedy and ungenerous. Let the UN rot.

* Hollywood / Big Sports: Lots of money here, lots of people following false heros. Are we so desparate to be entertained that we have to bow to these people? Michael Jackson. The Baseball steriods situation. Taxing for new baseball parks onto the society. Too much adult situations on television. And we just keep on feeding them money. The last movie I saw in the theater was Lord of the Rings III (or was it Harry Potter Priz of Aziksban not sure) and I might go for my first time this year and catch Star Wars this week. Hollywood and Big Sports need to be taken into moderation.

* Disposible Society: If it doesn't work, toss it out. Gone is the wonderful art of repair services. Microwave broke? toss it. You need a new computer: toss the other one. Your discman is too old... time for an iPod. Your cell phone doesn't have color screens on it... time for a new one. In high school, each year, there was an electronics course offered. I signed up for it all 4 years, and never got it because they kept cancelling the class. I ended up learning how to solder and repair electronics with my ham radio studies.

* Exhausted Society: We have cell phones that ring all the time. We are on the internet regularly. We are wired with so much information. Who authorized my Bank to put my bank accounts online? Why can I order a credit report from a website? Why are certain licenses and other personal data available so anyone can find out things about me? What right is it for you to know how much my property taxes were last year? It is only a matter of time that drug records and my fingerprints will be available next. We are so wired, and so connected in abstract methods that we are addicted, and burning out.

During my honeymoon, I found out I wanted to be on the internet daily for just a bit to check email, and see what the news was. It was a withdrawl problem, as I have been here on the internet since 1990 in college. My new wife really put things in perspective for me, and I have found the off buttons on the Cell phone and on the radio, and on the internet.

I sleep better at night.

Time to go to bed now.

Christian

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The problem with the competition between the Republicans and the "Democrats" in the US isn't that they're too different, it's that they're too similar (at least in program, the hardcore members tend to shift to the left of right to either the "dems" or the Republicans).
If there were fundamental differences between the party programs there would be far less fighting for the electorate as it would be clear who most of the population would favour. As it is most people don't see any difference between the party programs in the areas they care about, so the only way the parties can go to get those people to vote for them is by trying to make the other guy look bad in comparison on grounds which have nothing to do with the party programs at all (like military records).
I doubt the situation will evolve into armed conflict, but I do expect an upheaval of the political system in the US and the appearance of one or more other parties as people on the fringes of the current parties get disenfranchised and seek true representation.

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Not that I'd know, as I don't live in the USA, but from what I've seen I don't think that what either party do are particularly different or even neccesary. At the end of the day, no person in power is going to keep all of their promises because, as jwenting said right back when this thing was created, POWER CORRUPTS. You just can't help that. :(

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By the way, my own 'most worrying'?

The capitalist World Economy. On a global scale, that's just what we have, and it's a big worry. Capitalism basically and fundamentally depends upon continued growth for its continued existence. We live on a ball of rock with finite resources. And we're not even thinking about alternatives ;)

There is one reason why the capitalist system is the only one which works:

This planet cannot feed its human population without work. All of the other systems are attempts to find ways of getting out of doing your own work.

Two common fallacies proffered by those favoring other economic systems:

1. "If we stop the big businesses from hoarding all the money, there is enough money to go around if we all share and share alike. Nobody would have to work."

OK. Enjoy your $2,500. That's all you get (total world currency, divided by world population and rounded) for life. And since nobody is making any products, there's nothing to buy (including food). Oh, and don't forget that government will come around and demand 72 percent of it as taxes, just like it does now. So enjoy the $700 you have left.

2. "We need to get back to the utopia of the Greek and Roman civilizations. They had it so much better."

Well - some did. Most didn't Those economies were run by slave labor.

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... Bush in the US ... re-elected.

If it hadn't been for Ross Perot, combined with the faulty Plurality Voting System, Bill Clinton would have lost both elections by wide margins.

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Now, how many of those were done to get something for ourselves, and how many were done to stop one country or group from taking over another?

Exactly. That's not a credible source. Probably done by some arab that hates the US.

Edited by Dani: Formatting fixed

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Try living in Australia, mate! Way things are going here the whole ------ country seems likely to turn into another Gobi desert!

So? The entire world is very temporary.

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If it hadn't been for Ross Perot, combined with the faulty Plurality Voting System, Bill Clinton would have lost both elections by wide margins.

Yeah, I forgot the full numbers but it was suppose to be a landslide for bush sr. Perot broke off and formed his own party because he disagreed with bush's views. At the end perot took "I THINK" 27% away from bush causing clinton just enough to win. The second time he was going to lose also. Colon Powell was going to run but his wife got really sick and didn't want him too. He was predicted to win. Actually, it's predicted that any time he runs he will win, but I don't know if that's true or not.

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