Dark Matter & Dark Energy - Page 5

[christina>you]

This basically was a God thread from the beginning. Read my first post.

[Serunson]

i know but it is becoming a second god thread, 1 will do ~ this was slightly better ~ talking bout physics, not about the existence/non-existence of god

[twomers]

My point about the flat earth was not that its roundhood has been known since the Greeks but that a major "wrong" was believed as a "right". OK. It wasn't the greatest analogy to pull on second thoughts. I'm not going to say what I think might be right or wrong ... but I'm certain that some things we think are right (or rightish :)), aren't.

Meh. Ignorance is bliss :)

[EnderX]

Meh. Ignorance is bliss :)

Nah, we just don't know any better.

[twomers]

>> Nah, we just don't know any better.

Well I for one definitely don't learn from my mistakes :)

[Aia]

I agree. I'm glad that we have another atheist on our team ;)

Are you trying to found an atheist religion now?. I see that you have become a missionary for it.

[christina>you]

Are you trying to found an atheist religion now?. I see that you have become a missionary for it.

Lol.
An atheist missionary, that's something you don't hear about every day.

[Aia]

Lol.
An atheist missionary, that's something you don't hear about every day.

Well there are more than you think out there.
Atheism is as much a religion as any other.
Don't believe me?. Think about these principles:
~ You got to have faith on it.
~ You have to live by it.
Sounds familiar?.

[christina>you]

Well there are more than you think out there.
Atheism is as much a religion as any other.
Don't believe me?. Think about this:
~ You got to have faith on it.
~ You have to live by it.
Sounds familiar?.

I know, but most people would disagree with your statement.
Especially atheists because a lot of them become atheist just for the simple fact that they don't like religion.

[joshSCH]

:-/

Actually, atheism is the lack of faith. There is a difference.

You don't live by it either.. explain what you mean by this.

Are you trying to found an atheist religion now?. I see that you have become a missionary for it.

Naw, I just get tired of debating with 20 Christians when we only have 2-3 atheists..

[Aia]

> Actually, atheism is the lack of faith. There is a difference.
Ha, ha. and ha.
It may be lack of faith in diviny intervention, but
certanly not in conviction.
Beside most of your acts are in faith. By faith you get up out of your bed every morning, because you believe you can. By faith you go to school because you believe that you'll get the result you hope for. Should I continue?.

> You don't live by it either.. explain what you mean by this.
I shall explain what I mean by. Everytime that you hear one of those 20 Christians you make sure that your opinion about your conviction is heard. You breath atheism at the first mention of God, or Divine Intervention.
I'll say you live the Gospel of "there's nothing after death", the same way we live our hope of
"something more".

[EnderX]

:-/

Actually, atheism is the lack of faith. There is a difference.

You don't live by it either.. explain what you mean by this.

Naw, I just get tired of debating with 20 Christians when we only have 2-3 atheists..

Atheism may be a religion of sorts, depending on how you define 'religion'. After all, it is a statement of beliefs, even though what you believe is 'nothing'. It's as much a religious belief as [not(x==8)] is a computational statement...both are focused on negation.

And any kind of belief, whether overtly 'religious' or not, is something you live by. If you didn't believe it, then it wouldn't affect you, but because you do, it does. See?

And I don't think there are twenty of us here; we're just synergistic in debate.

[joshSCH]

> Actually, atheism is the lack of faith. There is a difference.
Ha, ha. and ha.
It may be lack of faith in diviny intervention, but
certanly not in conviction.
Beside most of your acts are in faith. By faith you get up out of your bed every morning, because you believe you can. By faith you go to school because you believe that you'll get the result you hope for. Should I continue?.

No, I do those things because I have to. No one gave me the choice to live or not. I am simply trying to make the best of the short life that I am forced to live.

> You don't live by it either.. explain what you mean by this.
I shall explain what I mean by. Everytime that you hear one of those 20 Christians you make sure that your opinion about your conviction is heard. You breath atheism at the first mention of God, or Divine Intervention.
I'll say you live the Gospel of "there's nothing after death", the same way we live our hope of
"something more".

Hmm.. Look at it this way: I believe in nothing, which is the absence of something. However, nothing is something, no? This is your argument. The belief in nothing is a belief true, however it is the lack of faith that I believe in. You see? Everything is something, even nothing.

And btw, most atheists will not argue with you Christians. They don't give a damn.. They know that they are right, and the couldn't care less who believes them. I am a bit different, because I thought science and simple logic could easily win yall over. I was wrong. And I am always tempted to discontinue the argument.. but I don't, because I wan't yall to understand.

[christina>you]

> Actually, atheism is the lack of faith. There is a difference.
Ha, ha. and ha.
It may be lack of faith in diviny intervention, but
certanly not in conviction.
Beside most of your acts are in faith. By faith you get up out of your bed every morning, because you believe you can. By faith you go to school because you believe that you'll get the result you hope for. Should I continue?.

> You don't live by it either.. explain what you mean by this.
I shall explain what I mean by. Everytime that you hear one of those 20 Christians you make sure that your opinion about your conviction is heard. You breath atheism at the first mention of God, or Divine Intervention.
I'll say you live the Gospel of "there's nothing after death", the same way we live our hope of
"something more".

I agree with all of this.

No, I do those things because I have to. No one gave me the choice to live or not. I am simply trying to make the best of the short life that I am forced to live.

But you do it by faith, right? Faith is just simply believing something. Like believing you'll make an A on a test because you study for it. - And what Aia said.

They know that they are right, and the couldn't care less who believes them. I am a bit different, because I thought science and simple logic could easily win yall over. I was wrong. And I am always tempted to discontinue the argument.. but I don't, because I wan't yall to understand.

Understand what?

[Aia]

Hmm.. Look at it this way: I believe in nothing, which is the absence of something. However, nothing is something, no? This is your argument. The belief in nothing is a belief true, however it is the lack of faith that I believe in. You see? Everything is something, even nothing.

You got it. ;)

[joshSCH]

But you do it by faith, right? Faith is just simply believing something. Like believing you'll make an A on a test because you study for it. - And what Aia said.

No. It isn't faith. I would not continue doing what I am doing if I didn't have to. No one gave me a choice to be born or not.. I have no faith.. The only reason I do anything is simply because I want to. I know life is purposeless and it is pointless for me to do anything. There would be no difference if I killed myself or lived my life out the way I wanted.. And since I'm not a psycho, wussy, suicidal person.. I choose to create my own purpose for life, and just live for the hell of it.

[Aia]

>just live for the hell of it.
You see you believe in hell too.
Just joking buddy ;)

[christina>you]

No. It isn't faith. I would not continue doing what I am doing if I didn't have to. No one gave me a choice to be born or not.. I have no faith.. The only reason I do anything is simply because I want to. I know life is purposeless and it is pointless for me to do anything. There would be no difference if I killed myself or lived my life out the way I wanted.. And since I'm not a psycho, wussy, suicidal person.. I choose to create my own purpose for life, and just live for the hell of it.

No life is pointless nor is any life purposeless.
That's why people have abortions, they don't care about the choices they make for lives that don't have the ability to tell them whether or not they want to live or die.
I think every life has a purpose.

[joshSCH]

No life is pointless nor is any life purposeless.
That's why people have abortions, they don't care about the choices they make for lives that don't have the ability to tell them whether or not they want to live or die.
I think every life has a purpose.

Not in the global scheme of things.. In 500 years, what will it matter that you or I ever lived? 1000? 1,000,000? We will create no impact on this planet that has a magnitude to propel us into the history books forever... eventually, everything will be forgotten. Including the existence of humanity.

[quintoncoert]

You guys have just placed me in a very difficult position. Since I am an atheist I have to agree with Josh but Christina and Aia do have somewhat of a point.

Life is not pointless. I believe that each and every human on this planet has some point even if not a purpose in the religious sense of the word. Consider the man who invented flint so long ago. Even if we no longer use flint it provided a base from which we could advance economically and also scientifically. The actions or lack of actions we perform today will have an effect hundreds of years from today. If we for example decide that it is fine to blow up the earth then we effect live millions of years into the future by destroying it on earth. It is hard to say that we do not matter in the big sceme of things since our combined actions play such a big role for humanity as a whole.

But. That is no reason to bring a God into it. People have faith because of one of two reasons. Morality and fear.

Fear. Deep down humans know that they do not control that much of live. Even worse. Although powerfull as a species we are still at the mercy of nature. Since humans know that they can not control these things it gives them great comfort to pray to God, imaginary or real regardless, because this is their way of indirectly controlling what they cannot control directly.

Morality. Spiritual people(religious, new age, ironically enough even Satanists, etc) have a tendency to believe that the earth is a bad place and that it is getting even worse. So they believe that by having a central icon representing all that is good and also opposing the evil of say Satan, there is hope for the human race.

I dont think atheism is faith. It is more the acceptance of the things you cannot control and in many cases accepting responsibility for your own actions (i.e. not counting on the fear of God to keep you humane).

[EnderX]

It's not the fear of God that keeps us moral/humane, it's love for God. There is a difference.

And if someone's praying thinking they can control what's going to happen, either directly or indirectly as you stated, they've strayed away from faith and into magic. We cannot command God.

[quintoncoert]

>It's not the fear of God that keeps us >moral/humane, it's love for God. There is a >difference.

Really? Then why was the number one method of persuading people to believe in God the threat of burning in hell for so many centuries? Even to this day you get people saying more or less that even if all other atheist arguments are valid then at the least you should believe in God in order to save yourself from hell?

>And if someone's praying thinking they can >control what's going to happen, either >directly or indirectly as you stated, they've >strayed away from faith and into magic. We >cannot command God.

Firstly not commanding God. More like begging. And secondly the control God/magic effect. If that is true then why do so many religious people pray to God to affect the outcome of some event. For example praying for a safe arrival in the event of a long journey?

[EnderX]

You're mixing things up a bit.

Yes, warning someone else of hell is one way to lead them toward the Lord. Not necessarily the best, but a valid one. However, at that point in time, the individual in question has no reason not to be immoral (more specifically, not to pursue their own desires at the expense of others) other than their own conscience or public disapproval, neither of which seems to be very strong most of the time. Remember, this individual does not believe in God at this point.

After begin saved, the individual now honors God. At this point, he does have a valid reason to trust in God, and to do what is right; this reason is the individual's love for the One Who not only saved him from hell, but granted him far more than just salvation.

Begging is a bit closer; I'd simply call it asking in the scenario you present. 'Prayer', however, is simply speaking with God. Most people, sadly, do only pray when they need/want something (far to many on the 'want' side...), but that's not all there is to it.

Even assuming the scenario you present, however, it's asking for something, not demanding it. It's the difference between, say, asking your parents for a car on your 16th birthday and shoving your face in theirs and going 'Gimme a Car!'. It's not a matter of control, it's a matter of trust.

[quintoncoert]

However, at that point in time, the individual in question has no reason not to be immoral (more specifically, not to pursue their own desires at the expense of others) other than their own conscience or public disapproval, neither of which seems to be very strong most of the time. Remember, this individual does not believe in God at this point.

I believe that you are actually proving my point of morality. What you are implying is that conscience is not enough to keep a person good; he needs the presents of a God to do it for him.

I also believe that you are underestimating society and overestimating public aproval. No I am not contradicting myself. Society at large tends to be good. Of course you will always get the bad individuals but they tend to be in the minority. It is true that public approval will prevent some evil but if a truly bad person wants to do bad he will go clandestine.

Begging God. What can I say. If a child asks a parrent for a car( or even if he demands ) it is a valid action in the sense that there actually does exists parrents.

However asking God to savegaurd you on a journey while you have no evidence, only the thing called faith, that he actually exists is another matter entirely. Like I said. Children know that parrents exists because they have evidence of it every day. Religious people have no evidence of such existence of their deity. Therefore they need the faith. It is interresting that people pray for safety during a journey if they have no guarantee that there really is a deity which will protect them. But since their safety during their journey is not completely in their own hands the prayer is needed to control, indirectly via God, that part of their safety which is not in their own hands.

I believe it is a subconciousness thing. The same cerebral cortex which have made man the dominant species on this planet have saddled them with emotional issues. Some of these they pass onto their Gods whom they, so I believe, have invented for just this purpose.

[EnderX]

I believe that you are actually proving my point of morality. What you are implying is that conscience is not enough to keep a person good; he needs the presents of a God to do it for him.

Sort of; you're again confusing terms, good and moral. A person's own conscience can keep them on the 'moral' path. However, there is a difference between what the world views as 'moral' and what is right. After all, at one time slavery, for example, was viewed as being 'moral'. Did that make slavery right? No.

I also believe that you are underestimating society and overestimating public aproval. No I am not contradicting myself. Society at large tends to be good. Of course you will always get the bad individuals but they tend to be in the minority. It is true that public approval will prevent some evil but if a truly bad person wants to do bad he will go clandestine.

Quick request. Please take a look at societies throughout history and then tell me that you really believe that society is good. Mankind is not, and societies are made up of men. So where does this mysterious 'goodness of society' come from?

Begging God. What can I say. If a child asks a parrent for a car( or even if he demands ) it is a valid action in the sense that there actually does exists parrents.

However asking God to savegaurd you on a journey while you have no evidence, only the thing called faith, that he actually exists is another matter entirely. Like I said. Children know that parrents exists because they have evidence of it every day. Religious people have no evidence of such existence of their deity. Therefore they need the faith. It is interresting that people pray for safety during a journey if they have no guarantee that there really is a deity which will protect them. But since their safety during their journey is not completely in their own hands the prayer is needed to control, indirectly via God, that part of their safety which is not in their own hands.

I believe it is a subconciousness thing. The same cerebral cortex which have made man the dominant species on this planet have saddled them with emotional issues. Some of these they pass onto their Gods whom they, so I believe, have invented for just this purpose.

You misunderstand. Believers have evidence, it's just a form of evidence that you refuse to acknowledge, because you insist that God does not exist. Ask any true christian (see earlier arguments on 'churchian' for what I mean by that) and they'll be able to tell you about the evidence they've seen, in themselves and in others.

[quintoncoert]

I do believe that you have a valid point for right and moral. But then again God does not help either in those situations. I am tempted to say that most slave traders and owners believed in God.

The same went for your history argument. For example. When the duke of wellington did his military campaign in spain a lot of women could take being raped for granted. In my own native country, South Africa, Shaka, the king of the zulu, did his own campaign at the exact same time. It was some sort of ...unite all nguni people under the zulu banner... campaign. In that war if a zulu warrior had raped a single woman of either side he would have been killed along with his entire battalion( or impi as they were called). And no I am not a zulu so I am not seeing only the good of my own people. And also it is true that today a woman would have as much chance of being raped when she is in Zululand as anywhere else in the world.

But as to how society is good. Like I said. It is mostly subsets of society whom are evil. Revolutions like the one in France as well as the American war of independence should offer some small piece of evidence to that.

However. Here is what you are missing. Humans are a group of social animals. And although social animals fight for dominance amongst themselves, they rarely do enough to destroy their own society. Social animals need one another for simple survival and humans need each other more that any other group of animals. This had been true since the birth of our species and it is true even if only for economic reasons. Even if man itself is evil ( as you say even though I do not completely agree) then the fabric of society will be ruptured if man's evil affect his dealing with one another. Anyway this is just my point of view and having studied neither social science or psycology it can very well be wrong. But I am fairly intelligent and from what I have seen in society as well as my reasonable knowledge of ecology I do believe that this is at least to some extend true.

Another error many thinking people made about about animals is akin to the error which I believe you are making. That is the error of animals eating their own kind. While is true that some selected individuals does do this and that a scorpion mother would eat some of her young when starving to death any species who take this even reasonably far enough would soon destroy itself.

As for your evidence. I respect your view of your God and even though I did not see any such evidence when I was a christian I will not argue with that.

[christina>you]

But as to how society is good.

Why do you think society is good? Our society is far from good, it is corrupt.

[joshSCH]

Why do you think society is good? Our society is far from good, it is corrupt.

And why do you say our society is corrupt?

[christina>you]

And why do you say our society is corrupt?

Because it is.
Have you taken a look at the news lately?

[joshSCH]

Because it is.
Have you taken a look at the news lately?

"Because it is" is not a good explanation ;)

Society is bad to you, because of your morals and christian preferences. However, have you ever thought that perhaps the state of our society is relative depending on who is determining it?