Something I have noticed with my uni course is that there are so few women on it. Is there some reason why women stay away from the best part of using a computer IE programming in java?

am I a bit strange in getting excited when I finally finish a project which I have just not understood before and then suddenly it drops like the whole using of IndexOf, Substring() etc? One of my lecturers says functional programming is better than OO programming and java is the worst OO language and says computists should be proud to be geeks. Now I certainly disagree with my lecture on his views of functional programming and his views on Java.

are any of you proud to be geeks? :-p

Also how many women are on this forum?

I'm a woman studying Computer Science. There are more and more of us doing Computing courses :)
I am now learning both, Java and Haskell, and I enjoy them both. Although must admit that I find Haskell easier at the moment. I spend ages trying to find out why my Java programs don't want to cooperate, while learning Haskell takes me 2 hours a week and my programs work fine. But I really want to learn Java and I will eventually :)

cool. Its nice to know. The 1 fear I have is I end up like my lecturers male single and dating alcohol. So what I am trying to learn to do is not talk about computing to non computist cus I have found that while some of the stuff I do I think is really interesting it is completely boring to everyone else. Knowing there are some women programmers out there gives me hope that I could meet one and have someone I could be married to who shared my quirky computing interests.
I havnt heard of haskell before.

are you doing any mark up languages?

Or you could join social events that your union put on? Or take up a sport. The main reason people end up alone is becuase they don't socialise! So get out and live it a little. Myself are giving American Football a try whilst I'm also an active member of the Christian Union on our campus. Soon to be the president of it... WooT

There is a better way to socialize:
3 words for you
World Of Warcraft:icon_smile:

I'm a boy who writing this post , anyway this is my open ideas about female java programmers ,

Both men and women are human beings , Technology is for human , no matter you are boy
or a girl the technology is for you and the programmer is a one who are using his knowledge to make the software . Software is a thing that makes human lives more confortable and easy . So programmer is one who doing this . Something I have noticed with my uni course is that there are so few women on it. The main problem is that we ( as males) does not likes to give the chances for the girls . But
one thing about this is only the elder generation only have these type of ideas . Honstely AS A BOY I HAVEN'T THIS . and I hope 90% of the boys in my age have the same idea , not the OLD DRUNKED PROFESSORS IDEA . The 1 fear I have is I end up like my lecturers male single and dating alcohol. Yes the leacture is using the alchol , you better keep him a distance . The people who are
said that we have a PHD degree , and someone who old and so called him as a experience than us (thus beacuse he is only old ) , have these kinds of ideas . They did not really help
to the femal students , why they don't like to see femail as expertises . why the problem is that they are cannot be so called eperienced if women are there . and they are physically head dammaged know ! (PHD , Physically head damage , don't do it ) .

If womens are reading this thread , just listen , our younger generation does not like these kinds of ideas . POW ! the JOHN still takes cigrates ! but we didn't .

anyway the functional programming can be sometime good in some places , for a example think that you have to design a safety critical system like a system to a space shuttle then its better that you implement it with a functional programming method . You can use formal methods for that .

No problem you are a male of a femail , computing world is for you !
please argue my ideas

OO programming and java is the worst OO language

its a pathetic openion, probably he doesn't know the beauty of OO programmin,
java is one of the sweetest language on the earth. tell him to learn something about java.

There are generally few women in IT and most of those are doing work as analysts, trainers, and tech support people.

It's got nothing to do with Java, just the fact that women seem drawn more towards the people side of the business rather than communing with computers.

>Something I have noticed with my uni course is that there are so few women on it.
That's typical.

>Is there some reason why women stay away from the
>best part of using a computer IE programming in java?
Maybe they don't know that the best part of using a computer is programming in Java. It's certainly news to me. :icon_rolleyes: Personally, I don't like the language. I don't like the Java-centric attitude of typical Java programmers, and I despise every piece of Java software I've been forced to use.

In my group of 160 people there are 6 girls. However, I hate Java and will never be able to get anything working in it, while they, as far as I know, are quite good in programming in Java.

Wasn't the first programmer a lady BTW?

The feeling is mutual Narue, we hate C++ :)

C# OTOH looks nice.

The feeling is mutual Narue, we hate C++ :)

C# OTOH looks nice.

++

>The feeling is mutual Narue, we hate C++
I'm not a fan of C++ either, I simply tolerate it because C programmers these days are expected to do C++ as well.

>C# OTOH looks nice.
C# is closer to what I expected of Java.

>C# OTOH looks nice.
C# is closer to what I expected of Java.

That same sentiment was expressed by one of the designers of C# in some article I read. Basically saying the goal was to incorporate many things that Java got right and address some areas they felt were lacking. I've only had minimal exposure to it, since my job is 100% Java, but it seems like a decent language to me. I wouldn't have any qualms working in it if we had a need to.

Same here, and with the wholesale destruction that 1.7 seems to be going to bring to the language in terms of readability and ease of use I'm seriously considering making the switch to C# and abandoning what I'm starting to see as a sinking ship.

1.6 was bad, 1.7 looks to be an unmittigated disaster.

c# is nice, i went from VB.NET to it. Seems a little too structured at times, if you know what i mean

Personally, I don't like the language. I don't like the Java-centric attitude of typical Java programmers, and I despise every piece of Java software I've been forced to use.

AMEN

Will code for money; it doesn't matter whether it's C, C++, Java or C# as long it's a general purpose, fairly famous programming language. It's my job to churn out quality software which I think I am quite good at, though I must agree the language you program in greatly influences the way you look at things in terms of the initial requirement and the final outcome.

BTW, all the lady Java programmers I have seen either moved on to something simple like Testing or into Project Management. I guess Java is too much to handle for them. ;-)

I've asked myself that question a few times..I think it's that women often just don't see themselves "in the role" of the software geek, like they cant visualise it. I'm an average guy, not massively smart, but I get by because its a passion of mine and I see myself as a geek.

I use Java primarily for the absolutely enormous number of free frameworks and libraries available for it. And there are some cool Java frameworks out there, thats for sure.

Unfortunately, as Java ages, the likes of Sun and the various framework developers are injecting more power into Java technology, making the learning curve and ease of entry into Java harder. Java seems to be bloating out a bit and getting crusty in its old age.

piers, I recommend you read Beyond Java, by Bruce Tait. Java's got a while to go yet, and there's heaps of work out there for you if you decide to invest in Java, but leaner meaner languages and frameworks (as discussed in this book) are waiting for their turn.

PS. What I mean by learning of curve of Java is that when you use Java you have to also use a number of the frameworks built on it, like J2EE etc.

Firstly, there're less women in programming and computing worls.
Secondly, OOP does better than structure programming, especially when your application grow big.

oh yes she was...:)

aida augusta byron..
countess of lovelace...

I'm a female programmer. I have a BSc Computer Science degree and have now started my first job..

I was hired to be a java developer and i'm the only female developer on the team, but no1 wants to give me any coding work to do!

they constantly give me documentation and sometimes a bit of debugging. If I ask to be involved in the coding, the response is just, well, there's work that has to be done, but nothing that u know how to do...
rather reverse engineer some ERD's..
I don't know how they know that I "don't know how to do anything, because I've never been given the chance to prove myself..

I completed my degree, and did quite well at university, but i don;t think i'm gonna be able to have a career as a programmer if i'm not taken seriously.

It will be partly due to you being fresh on the job, where people get scared of the newcomer breaking code, thats normal to an extent, but yes, they probably are having trouble fitting you into their stereotype of a competent developer and that sucks! And if you complain you'll be "the female with the attitude problem"..

Start a blog or something and post up some of your creations as you make them, maybe some HOWTOs, articles etc. The right people will notice eventually. I love it when people do that, I'm constantly pinching stuff of people's blogs ;)

hmm good idea. Then see if you get head hunted by a rival company. Then you will be taken much more seriously. Yeah start putting some neat programmes on the web. Make all sorts of stuff either games or applications that are useful like converters, anti viruses anything. Then get advertisers to sponsor you, put their links on your website and make a good amount of money. When your company sees you doing well and the programmes you have made you will get trusted more and if ur site isn't popular u will have gr8er respect in your job. If it gets really popular you will be able to be self employed. Its called a win win situation :-p

>but no1 wants to give me any coding work to do!
When I get a rookies on my team, I'll assign work that familiarizes them with our programmers, our processes, and the products we work on. But I typically won't give them an immediate coding assignment because I can't expect them to write good code without an understanding of how the product works. If you don't know the code base, can you really be confident in your ability to add or modify features?

>they constantly give me documentation and sometimes a bit of debugging
Sounds like you're seeing imagined insults. Documentation familiarizes you with the product and debugging familiarizes you with the code. Not to mention that both of these jobs are absolutely critical, so I don't see what you're complaining about. If they trust you enough to do documentation and debugging, you should be happy.

Now, if you're still doing documentation and a bit of debugging after several months, then I'd start to question your manager about why you haven't been asked to do any coding.

Being able to write documentation is PURE GOLD. A rare and underrated skill you definitely want to cultivate, that many employees will value you for, don't fret!

Narue has it right. New developers that do not have a significant amount of relative work experience are not just thrown into coding generally. Perhaps if there is a small piece of functionality that would not affect other dependencies within the code base, they may be assigned work on those, but debugging and documentation is by far the safest way for newcomers to gain an understanding of the code without risk to the development. Most real-world projects are orders of magnitude more complex than the typical projects and assignments that new developers have worked on. Getting a handle on that does take some time and it must be worked into without jeopardizing the productivity of the team and introducing problems.

... and having a blog is not going to change that.

thanks for all the suggestions:)

well, it's just been 3 weeks and to be honest, I don't understand everything that's going on in the code...so as u say narue, debugging and docs will do me good:)

perhaps I was being way too sensitive...
Yesterday, i read a quote, "it's not about how much u do, it's about how much love u put into the doing"
And i think if i really put effort into the little tasks i have, I'll learn a lot and hopefully be able to start doing some coding soon...

I do not know if I am topic sway but there are some real hardcore Java programmers who will use Java for ALL PURPOSES!!!! They will die for Java so as to speak. In fact for every new IT project initiation they will strongly propose Java as the programming language due to the large number of framework and libraries and classes that are so in abundance!!!!

My personal take is we should NOT use a programming language and try to force use it to suit the project requirements. Instead it should be the project requirements that drive which language or technology to use isn't it? In this approach, one should then not just stick to Java faithfully for ALL projects. One should instead be well versed in various languages to better suit the project requirements.

In my working career, there are times when you need to support and enhance on existing systems that maybe written in Ada, Pascal or even assembly!!!! It is not so often you get to write new codes so as to speak. In fact enhancement can even be tougher than writing new programs cuz first you need to understand how the existing code flow and the structure and patterns that are deployed. Comments don't help as programmers are well known to be lazy writers. I am one I admit. In fact there are cases when comment say x += 2 but the actual code is x -= 2!!!! The final outcome is believe the code rather than the comment isn't it?

Lastly back to topic. Female programmers do exist but my personal view is they are generally stronger in project management and design and analysis. When I surf net for C++ standards, CORBA standards, Java etc stuff I saw more authors that are male. I am not gender discriminating but just stating what I meet and read in my working life.

C, C++, Java, Pascal are created by man BUT behind all these great men are their lady wives that stood by them as they pursue faithfully in their toy sacrificing precious bonding times. Without these understanding wives, I doubt C C++ Java and Pascal can be created for mass use today. For this I salute the women !!!! :P

Btw I value family life as I am happily married with two young daughters and an understanding wife who let me pursue what I like best and that is programming. Weekends are strictly bonding times with family so I take a break from programming unless there are new IT launch from company and I need to provide support.

to all female java buddies ,

do not discourage from the statement that 'There are less female java programmers in the industry' . That's the society problem and not a skill level or talnet problem , do you want to view the female persons that who are worlds no1 IT professionals .

for an example Raven Alder , a smart one in computer security , search for her in the google if you interested , ( hay search means , search her bio , books and not how to marry her ) . The persons like her are not very much interested to the family life and oppisite sex , Like me , that was not only for the femail but I'm talking here as a male . This is normally happens to more IT specilists , including me ( that doesn't say that I was an specilist OKY) , anyway the things are like ,
feel the oppsite sex as another category of human kind only .
when you working you are only direct at the work ( you are in a mission ) , and feels nothing
you feel the 'sex' life as a another only one thing in a human life but not the most important or a great thing . That doesn't say that we doen't have these hormones .
You does not likes your oppisite sex persion become smater than you !


probably if you have these things in your mind , you are a hacker , you have the hacker skills when you bron . You are the one . THen go ahead and be smart . Let no one to win . Wheter you may be male or female does not matter that thing . Its natural thing that feeling jelocy about the oppisite sex .

Let me be honest here
as a male I hate smart female who are interest in computing . But their life is not computing , they just like ordinary . But as a computing hobbist My life is computing . Most of the interested thing in my life is computing not the 'family life' . As usuall , the girls who
are at my batch are not very interested in computing , But I clearly know that Computing is not their life .


Like this if you are a female and your life is really computing , then you are really interested to the computing and hate the male onces that are only interested in sex and love . But you can feel them as they are something smart than me in computing also ( like I feels on my oppsite sex ) , anyway the answer is this , if you feel like this , think that you are the expert ! They may have skills but they only needs to have money from the computing , not the life sugar . But the thing real thing is they may have skills , but this
is not their life as ours . Then the skill level is a thing that needs some time as a cost . You
will be really expert than them with some time . That;s the nature , as a male I feel that the girls are more smart in computing ( This is a probably oppsite idea that in this form , isn't it ) , So girls , that who are like me , listen up , feeling like that is very natural .

WHo said here that he hate C , <<<< normally we cannot compare any language with one another , C may be bad for the application level programming , But C is the most better language for the Kernel programming . You just search how's the operating system kernel is written . But when you needs to mke a secure web applications , it's better to use Java , Java provides many security fetures that are built into the language . Shcuh as C++/C stack overflows are not in Java . But if you say C is worse and Java is the best , Think again . Please download a free book about java design parttens and read it to dead before you argue this idea .