Collins: Why this scientist believes in God - Page 10

[joshSCH]

lol.. Actually, all religions are growing.. perhaps not at the same rate, but all are increasing none the less. And I don't know the exact numbers, but I was unaware that atheism was growing that quickly.. However, I'm not quite sure where they get these numbers from.. I doubt most atheists care enough to actually report that they are atheist.

Um thats impossible. If atheism is growing NON PROPORTIONALLY to the population of the earth then all other religions would be DECREASING.

Not necessarily.. the other religions may just be increasing at a slower rate..

[joshSCH]

Why but? So the universe expanding uses energy. What of it? Once it gets to a universally defined maximum size, it starts contracting again and warms up. It does this until it reaches a universally defined minimum size, the starts expanding again. It never has to reach the point of destruction.

Did you just say that the multiverse theory is false?

Who said the multiverse theory is true? Out of all the theories for the Universe, It is the theory that most scientists disagree with. The universe will probably not contract again... So ya, I just said the multiverse theory is false..

I find it very interesting that most people here were respecting other people and their beliefs for the most part, even though they disagreed. Then Rashakil explained his belief and promptly got called names and razzed for almost 2 hours, the most disrespect coming from an 18 year old who could not accept Rashakil belief as just his belief. Who are you to judge the idea? No wonder there's so much trouble in the world when someone can't have a belief that makes sense to him but not to others, and he has to endure the ire and persecution of someone in ignorance of the concept. Sounded like a religious zealot, didn't he? ;)

Hmm.. maybe because it wasn't Rashakil's belief. It didn't even make sense.. It was just plain stupid. I am not in ignorance of the concept, It's just a ridiculous idea. He didn't even relate it to anything! He just started throwing random words out..

[Sturm]

Logic and simple addition would say otherwise...

[Rashakil Fol]

But they're NOT. Gosh.

What are you talking about? The proportions have to add up to 1. If the atheist proportion is increasing, the non-atheist proportion has to decrease. Or do you have some argument based on your proposition that pi equals 3?

[lasher511]

"A position on life that I think most atheists would take would be to not beleive anything without proof. Therefore the 30 second universe theory is false. I could make up the same argument with the piece of pizza beside me that gives me super powers."

How does that prove the 30 second universe as false that just means that you dont believe it/ understand the concepts behind it

[lasher511]

Who said the multiverse theory is true? Out of all the theories for the Universe, It is the theory that most scientists disagree with. The universe will probably not contract again... So ya, I just said the multiverse theory is false..

I don't see how something not being accepted by most scientists proves it as false only that there is not enough evidence against it to be widely accepted by the scientific comunity and since when do you represent the entire scientific comunity on this subject anyway.

[joshSCH]

Logically the idea is idiotic.. If the universe was only 30 seconds old then that would mean there was a god: Who else could create the universe and give us false memories, etc.. And why would a god do this? Why would a god give people false memories, ideas, etc.. It just doesn't make sense unless you are using the '30 second universe' to prove something..

[joshSCH]

I don't see how something not being accepted by most scientists proves it as false only that there is not enough evidence against it to be widely accepted by the scientific comunity and since when do you represent the entire scientific comunity on this subject anyway.

No, I wasn't saying the theory was false. If you go back to my quote you will see that I was replying to WaltP's comment about the multiverse theory.

[Sturm]

lol.. Actually, all religions are growing.. perhaps not at the same rate, but all are increasing none the less. And I don't know the exact numbers, but I was unaware that atheism was growing that quickly.. However, I'm not quite sure where they get these numbers from.. I doubt most atheists care enough to actually report that they are atheist.

Um thats impossible. If atheism is growing NON PROPORTIONALLY to the population of the earth then all other religions would be DECREASING.

Not necessarily.. the other religions may just be increasing at a slower rate..

Yes you do have a point. I got my facts from christina. the website she got it from presumably was http://www.adherents.com/Religions_By_Adherents.html

It is worth mentioning that the 1.1 billion atheist number is really only 550 million. (see above)

Ok if atheism is increasing non proportionaly then one or more religions MUST be increasing less then proportionaly. But this still means that the percentage of atheists on Earth is increasing.

Sorry for the bad post in advance I had to write it quick.

[lasher511]

Logically the idea is idiotic.. If the universe was only 30 seconds old then that would mean there was a god: Who else could create the universe and give us false memories, etc.. And why would a god do this? Why would a god give people false memories, ideas, etc.. It just doesn't make sense unless you are using the '30 second universe' to prove something..

I does not matter wether it is logical to you or not the point is that it is "plausible" and there is no way of knowing that it isnt the case. Yes it may not make any sense as to why this would happen but you would assume that if it was caused by a superior being like God then he/IT would have a reason for doing this and wether you know this reason or not does not mean the theory behind it is illogical.

It is also plausible that this happened because of something other then a superior being really we have no idea how the universe acts or works and for all we know we could have just come into being with these memories etc without any 3rd party interaction.

[joshSCH]

I does not matter wether it is logical to you or not the point is that it is "plausible" and there is no way of knowing that it isnt the case. Yes it may not make any sense as to why this would happen but you would assume that if it was caused by a superior being like God then he/IT would have a reason for doing this and wether you know this reason or not does not mean the theory behind it is illogical.

It is also plausible that this happened because of something other then a superior being really we have no idea how the universe acts or works and for all we know we could have just come into being with these memories etc without any 3rd party interaction.

yes, I suppose that is true.. But, would you remind me what the point of this '30 second universe' is? It's just an idea that no one has made a connection to anything.. It is irrelevant in this discussion...

[lasher511]

We were dicussing all the possibilities of how the universe came into existence and this is what Rashakil brought up a possibilty before you shot him down dismissing him as talking jibberish

[joshSCH]

yea.. but we were being serious.. you cant possibly say that his 30 second universe theory was actually something that he believed...

[Rashakil Fol]

The 30 second universe is no more or less ridiculous than the notion of a universe with gravity. Or time, even.

[joshSCH]

It had no relevance in what we were discussing..

[christina>you]

lol.. Actually, all religions are growing.. perhaps not at the same rate, but all are increasing none the less. And I don't know the exact numbers, but I was unaware that atheism was growing that quickly.. However, I'm not quite sure where they get these numbers from.. I doubt most atheists care enough to actually report that they are atheist.

That is EXACTLY what I was trying to say. Sturm - I'm sorry you didn't comprehend what I was talking about. And like Josh said, I don't think a true atheist would really care about it.

[lasher511]

The 30 second universe is no more or less ridiculous than the notion of a universe with gravity. Or time, even.

Exactly right. Just because you find the idea of it ridiculous does not make it any less plausible. Even theories that have been proven today were thought ridiculous when they first came about for example back when people still thought that the world was flat they thought the idea of a more or less round world was impossible merely because it was different from what was known and accepted now. These days we know that the earth is more or less round because we have the evidence to prove it(being able to view the earth from orbit etc. but back then they did not have as much proof for this theory and so alot of people rejected the idea.

Now im not saying that we will find evidence to prove that the 30 second universe is true infact we will most likly never know but it does not make it any less plausible then these other theories

Personally i being a christian i believe in God but i think it is good to keep an open mind about theories like this.

[christina>you]

What are you talking about? The proportions have to add up to 1. If the atheist proportion is increasing, the non-atheist proportion has to decrease. Or do you have some argument based on your proposition that pi equals 3?

I don't think you have any room to ask what I am talking about my friend. Everything you say doesn't make a bit of sense. I mean, you were the one who invented a new word, stupiddectuals... come on!

[sharkey]

Even though I am an atheist, god, in some sense, exists. Is the imaginary different from the real? Not if people treat the two the same. God and religion have shaped reality, history, and all people from all walks of life.
Even though god does'nt exist physically, he sure has killed alot of people. (which bears testimony of his strength.)

Well said

[sharkey]

Lol I don't even know what to say to that whole thing. I have never heard anyone try to back themselves up with something so ridiculously idiotic as that. I'm sorry, but that was just... no... wow. Haha, I mean what is a "stupiddectual" anyway?

It was a parody of the argurments used by religion and it was hillarious. Where's your sense of humor. I though joshSCH would get it.

[christina>you]

It was a parody of the argurments used by religion and it was hillarious. Where's your sense of humor. I though joshSCH would get it.

Hilarious to you maybe.
But for us, it was a serious conversation.

[sharkey]

Then why did you say you hated it? That's like me saying... I don't hate the atheist I just hate everything they believe in... =/ It seems like atheists are more aggressive than Christians.

You are really really sensitive. Let's try this again

I can hate an act (and again I said I don't really hate it, I was trying to make a point) of a person without hating the person.

It's a Christian phrase to hate the sin and not the sinner is it not? It you hate the sinner you are not loving your enemy as Jesus commanded. I'm sure you despise many things in the world but make sure it's things you are against because when you go against people you are judging them and you're not allowed to do that according to your religion.

Lighten up! Reality must be hard for you. The real world is evil:twisted:

[christina>you]

You are really really sensitive. Let's try this again

I can hate an act (and again I said I don't really hate it, I was trying to make a point) of a person without hating the person.

It's a Christian phrase to hate the sin and not the sinner is it not? It you hate the sinner you are not loving your enemy as Jesus commanded. I'm sure you despise many things in the world but make sure it's things you are against because when you go against people you are judging them and you're not allowed to do that according to your religion.

Lighten up! Reality must be hard for you. The real world is evil:twisted:

All I can say is, wow.

[joshSCH]

Exactly right. Just because you find the idea of it ridiculous does not make it any less plausible. Even theories that have been proven today were thought ridiculous when they first came about for example back when people still thought that the world was flat they thought the idea of a more or less round world was impossible merely because it was different from what was known and accepted now. These days we know that the earth is more or less round because we have the evidence to prove it(being able to view the earth from orbit etc. but back then they did not have as much proof for this theory and so alot of people rejected the idea.

Now im not saying that we will find evidence to prove that the 30 second universe is true infact we will most likly never know but it does not make it any less plausible then these other theories

You aren't seriously backing his theory, are you? I mean, sure.. if you bridge reality and fantasy like that, then you are right, there is no proof that such a theory could not exist. Then I can make a theory that I am the only human on this planet, everyone else is just a robot in human form! The Earth is just like the Truman show! lol.. do you see how ridiculous that sounds? If we do not count memories, text, scientific data, etc. as proof, then ANYTHING would be possible. His 30-second theory was dumb, and completely irrelevant to the discussion of atheism and Christianity. In no way whatsoever did he connect his theory with our discussion. And personally, I think we have talked about this '30 second theory' way too long..

[christina>you]

You aren't seriously backing his theory, are you? I mean, sure.. if you bridge reality and fantasy like that, then you are right, there is no proof that such a theory could not exist. Then I can make a theory that I am the only human on this planet, everyone else is just a robot in human form! The Earth is just like the Truman show! lol.. do you see how ridiculous that sounds? If we do not count memories, text, scientific data, etc. as proof, then ANYTHING would be possible. His 30-second theory was dumb, and completely irrelevant to the discussion of atheism and Christianity. In no way whatsoever did he connect his theory with our discussion. And personally, I think we have talked about this '30 second theory' way too long..

Wonderfully written Josh. Bravo! ;)

[joshSCH]

oh and time to pause this discussion.. South Park is on

[sharkey]

I sorry but I'm about to go off on a tangent. I was thinking about my comment on the world is evil and I know someone is going to argue that man is naturally good.

So here goes:

I believe in capitalism but it's evil. We buy things from China to save money. The chinese kill and torture the falon gong or however you spell that. We support it through our finances.

We buy oil from terrorists and support that.

We say we're for freedom/democracy but we support dictatorships far more than we attack them.

Imagine you had omnipotent power like "God". You're going to tell me that you would do good for the world and help everone. We would live in peace forever and ever.

Your "God" has omnipotent power and claims through Christ that we should forgive and love each other. Yet 1/3 of your "God's" angels rebelled with Lucifer. Why did they rebel against a perfect loving being? He was omnipotent and providing to there every need right? Somewhere in the bible it says when you go to heaven you can praise God forever and ever. Talk about pride and ego. God got angry at people and flooded the earth, he released plaques. That is not good and holy, that is evil. God is a murderer. God is a child with a magnifying glass and we are ants. He does not care about people, we are here for his enjoynment.

Absolute power corrupts absolutly, even God is not immune.

There is no utopia, there is not alltruistic society, there is no God of the bible.

Now I'll lighten up.

[sharkey]

You aren't seriously backing his theory, are you? I mean, sure.. if you bridge reality and fantasy like that, then you are right, there is no proof that such a theory could not exist. Then I can make a theory that I am the only human on this planet, everyone else is just a robot in human form! The Earth is just like the Truman show! lol.. do you see how ridiculous that sounds? If we do not count memories, text, scientific data, etc. as proof, then ANYTHING would be possible. His 30-second theory was dumb, and completely irrelevant to the discussion of atheism and Christianity. In no way whatsoever did he connect his theory with our discussion. And personally, I think we have talked about this '30 second theory' way too long..

I thought you were smart. He was not serious about a 30 second world. He was making a point about religion. No matter what you say against him he'll stick to his "belief" and counter your argument with absurdity. That's how religions in general work. You show them them evidence against their beleifs and they counter with circular arguments, fallacy, wishful thinking, and ignorance.

Read the below site. It's an eye opener.
http://www.godisimaginary.com/i5.htm

[lasher511]

You are really really sensitive. Let's try this again

It's a Christian phrase to hate the sin and not the sinner is it not? It you hate the sinner you are not loving your enemy as Jesus commanded. I'm sure you despise many things in the world but make sure it's things you are against because when you go against people you are judging them and you're not allowed to do that according to your religion.

Actually i think that was more a quote made by a Christian that does not make it something that all christians have to follow in particular. Our main source of guidence comes from the Bible which does tend to follow this same general idea. The Bible does not say anything about disagreeing with people it does say "Judge not lest you be Judged" but this is talking more about judging other people sins then disagreement with the things that they believe in.

[sharkey]

Actually i think that was more a quote made by a Christian that does not make it something that all christians have to follow in particular. Our main source of guidence comes from the Bible which does tend to follow this same general idea. The Bible does not say anything about disagreeing with people it does say "Judge not lest you be Judged" but this is talking more about judging other people sins then disagreement with the things that they believe in.

I can quote you verses all day if you want.

Matthew 5:44-48