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Well, I've found absolute truth.

Absolute truth is never known and never will be.

And that folks, is the difference between a intellectual and an average person.

Most people at my dads work are atheists/agnostics. Maybe its because he is a scientist where the average IQ >130.

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And that folks, is the difference between a intellectual and an average person.

Haha sure. You're only 14, what do you really know?

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Before I abondon this thread I want to say a few more things. I'm probably not going to make another reply after this one.

I'm not sure what OP means but if it means the person who started the thread, then my original idea was only something I thought was interesting. It definitely isn't something I believe in at all, I just wanted to see what people thought of it.

As for the christian-atheist bash going on, it would appear to me that in most cases (not all) atheists try to force their nonbelief on others with angst. As if they were betrayed by religion, which would only mean in the back of their mind they actually do believe in it. The true atheists don't really see the need to debate the topic at all. But like I said that description doesn't fit everyone. From a third party perspective it seems as though the atheists are bashing and the christians are remaining humble. Which in any case shows a lot about one's beliefs and character and establishes who is a credible source and who isn't.

As for doubt, I began to doubt my religion once. I even hated it for a little bit. I questioned it, and I looked at science for answers too. I decided I needed to know what's right and what isn't. I ended up a believer again and there is most certainly logic in it. I still disagree with my parents on just about everything so that has nothing to do with God's influence on me.

I also believe omniscience and free will do not contradict. God (for you atheists, hypothetically, to demonstrate omniscence) is active in our lives and not "watching a football game" (but I liked that analogy). He knows someone's destiny is to find Jesus, but that person can only find Jesus if God leads him there, and so God does so, so destiny can be fulfilled. As for those "bound" to go to hell, it isn't that God doesn't want them, but he knows that because he gave them free will there is nothing He can do to change some people's minds. And there you go, omniscience and free will.

I'm done with this thread. Bye everybody.

Very good post.

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What do I know???? I scored 1310 on the SATs and am planning for perfect next year. I will be doing calculus next year in 9th grade, and this sunday I am going to an awards ceremony because I got one of highest SAT scores in Maryland for 8th graders.This summer I am going to a three week cryptology course hosted by John Hopkins and next year, in high school, I will be going to Eleanor Roosevelt High school. Eleanor Roosevelt High School is the school this years national science fair winner came from. DO NOT EVER DISCRIMINATE AGAINST MY AGE.
It is not some thing I tolerate or accept.

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What do I know???? I scored 1310 on the SATs and am planning for perfect next year. I will be doing calculus next year in 9th grade, and this sunday I am going to an awards ceremony because I got one of highest SAT scores in Maryland for 8th graders.This summer I am going to a three week cryptology course hosted by John Hopkins and next year, in high school, I will be going to Eleanor Roosevelt High school. Eleanor Roosevelt High School is the school this years national science fair winner came from. DO NOT EVER DISCRIMINATE AGAINST MY AGE.
It is not some thing I tolerate or accept.

Whoa, I think he should you up Christina. I scored a 2100 somethn on the SAT my senior year.. you will surely be a national merit finalist and do much better than I did. And I give you kudos for your intellect.. Calculus in 9th grade? Wow.. I only skipped one grade of math.. Finished calc 2 in my final semester of high school. Perhaps Sturm is a great example of how intelligence and atheism is positively correlated. He is obviously one of the smartest people in all of Daniweb, and he is atheist. Sturm, congrats, and good luck with your high school career: Soon you will realize that it is impossible and idiotic for us atheists to debate the Christians (however, I can't help myself).. They are too unyielding and reliant on their faith.

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DO NOT EVER DISCRIMINATE AGAINST MY AGE.

Then don't act your age.

Edit: and make sure you brag about your AMC scores when you take that.

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sorry for being arrogant. (people say I have a BIG problem with that) 1310 btw, is math+language, not reading. I wouldn't say the smartest but whatever. I just wanted to make a point that do not assume anything because I am only 14. I kind of regret posting my age but oh well.

Then don't act your age.

DO you think I do? If so please tell me how I can modify my behavior. (I am not being sarcastic)

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Are you talking about my
"And that folks, is the difference between a intellectual and an average person." statement? I was just illustrating two different mindsets.

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Where do you work and go to school? Unless you go to a private christian school (doubtful, no offense) then it's illegal. And the same is true at your work unless you work at a religious place like a church.

Yes, it is illegal.. but do you think they care? It's all about jesus and spreading the word of god! They don't care about the law.. They are faithful only to jesus..

As for the christian-atheist bash going on, it would appear to me that in most cases (not all) atheists try to force their nonbelief on others with angst. As if they were betrayed by religion, which would only mean in the back of their mind they actually do believe in it. The true atheists don't really see the need to debate the topic at all. But like I said that description doesn't fit everyone. From a third party perspective it seems as though the atheists are bashing and the christians are remaining humble. Which in any case shows a lot about one's beliefs and character and establishes who is a credible source and who isn't.

It's true, most atheists don't want to debate Christians for this very reason.. However, I am too headstrong, and I thought I could convert you with simple logic and science.. I was obviously wrong.

I also believe omniscience and free will do not contradict. God (for you atheists, hypothetically, to demonstrate omniscence) is active in our lives and not "watching a football game" (but I liked that analogy). He knows someone's destiny is to find Jesus, but that person can only find Jesus if God leads him there, and so God does so, so destiny can be fulfilled. As for those "bound" to go to hell, it isn't that God doesn't want them, but he knows that because he gave them free will there is nothing He can do to change some people's minds. And there you go, omniscience and free will.

As I sit back and read your reasoning, I can understand what you mean. This multi-dimensional God, who knows all things, looks down upon the Earth as we come across decisions that we must make. God sees, and understands why we choose what we choose. And he does not interfere except where it is destined. However, does this truly constitute free will? Yes, to us on Earth, it appears to be free will. But, God knows what we will choose, so how do we really have a choice at all? If, for instance, I knew my own destiny then I would take steps to change my destiny and make my life more successful. I could see how and when I would die, and I would try to change it. If I did this then it would be free will, and God would not know exactly what I would do since I have tampered with his plan. It is only free will if others do not know what decisions you will make.

On another note.. doesn't God create all things? If he does, then why would he create people that he knows (through predestination) would be evil? Why does God not tamper with his predestination plan? Why does he allow murders, natural disasters, and people to doubt him? If he was all-powerful then what the hell would be the point of creating us in the first place? Why have a heaven and a hell? Why allow people to die brutal deaths? Why allow people to never know anything about him?

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Yes, I always thought logic would win out, but I learned that that it did not after I tried to convince my dad on why god was false, his religion (he is a Muslim, btw) ridiculous, and his habit of not eating pork (its against the Koran) stupid. But alas, I could never convince him, even though, in my mind of course, my arguments were flawless in their logic.

No, I'm talking about an ultimatum. That is not an ultimatum right there :-)

so what are you talking about?

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so what are you talking about?

What, are you implying that posts made more than thirty seconds ago are not yours?

DO NOT EVER DISCRIMINATE AGAINST MY AGE.
It is not some thing I tolerate or accept.

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What, are you implying that posts made more than thirty seconds ago are not yours?

haha.. thats your theory rashakil.. ;)

Yes, I always thought logic would win out, but I learned that that it did not after I tried to convince my dad on why god was false, his religion (he is a Muslim, btw) ridiculous, and his habit of not eating pork (its against the Koran) stupid. But alas, I could never convince him, even though, in my mind of course, my arguments were flawless in their logic.

ohhic.. what religion is your mother? Yea, some people just believe too blindly, and refuse to question anything. :-/

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Thats not an ultimatum. I was merely stating that lets keep age, race, gender, etc aside and focus on the real issue. When a person falls back to such a low and shallow remark such as: Your..your your wrong because your a girl! Or something of that nature, it implies that the person 1) has nothing of substance to say and is resorting to a lame slanderous comment or 2) the person is bigoted. I highly suspect Christina's remark falls into the former category. Unlike most people, I do not believe that being older makes you better than other people. In fact, I think talented kids are able to think in completely different and unique ways compared to most adults. Here is a nice quote (note I do not truly agree with it but it illustrates my point):

All of us are wrong sometimes, even the youngest of us

ohhic.. what religion is your mother? Yea, some people just believe too blindly, and refuse to question anything.

my mom is an atheist. I know it is an odd combination but whatever.

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What do I know???? I scored 1310 on the SATs and am planning for perfect next year. I will be doing calculus next year in 9th grade, and this sunday I am going to an awards ceremony because I got one of highest SAT scores in Maryland for 8th graders.This summer I am going to a three week cryptology course hosted by John Hopkins and next year, in high school, I will be going to Eleanor Roosevelt High school. Eleanor Roosevelt High School is the school this years national science fair winner came from. DO NOT EVER DISCRIMINATE AGAINST MY AGE.
It is not some thing I tolerate or accept.

Okay, okay. Chill. That's very impressive and good for you. I was simply asking why you think you know everything about religion. Maybe I should have clarified.

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I just got back from my Christian Development Class about an hour ago and ironically, my pastor was talking about how he used to be an atheist... this will probably show you how intelligent he really is.

-One day his father wanted him to go on some kind of trip with him... (I think it was supposed to be a Christian get together), which he of course resisted because he didn't want to be around people like that. Anyway, his dad finally pressured him into going and when they were getting ready to leave, his dad surprised him by bringing 3 other ministers along with him. Through the whole trip there and back, my pastor completely destroyed them with his philosophies and questions of Christianity that they had never been faced with. He said that they were "unequipped to challenge him." And he was right, because by the time they got back, 2 of the men quit the ministry completely. He said that the other one debated with him pretty well though. And he was only a teenager at this time.

That's why I think he's so intelligent... he knew everything about atheism and now he knows more about Christianity than anyone I've ever met... and I think it's due to the fact that he's been on both sides and has answered the questions he used to ask other Christians.

But one point he made was that we [Christians] will never be able to push an atheist into believing our faith. And we shouldn't try. He said we should just let them figure it out on their own, and if the opportunity comes that allows us to witness, then we should.

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What do I know???? I scored 1310 on the SATs and am planning for perfect next year. I will be doing calculus next year in 9th grade, and this sunday I am going to an awards ceremony because I got one of highest SAT scores in Maryland for 8th graders.This summer I am going to a three week cryptology course hosted by John Hopkins and next year, in high school, I will be going to Eleanor Roosevelt High school. Eleanor Roosevelt High School is the school this years national science fair winner came from. DO NOT EVER DISCRIMINATE AGAINST MY AGE.
It is not some thing I tolerate or accept.

With age comes wisdom. And if you're going to brag then I can too. My SAT score was higher than yours, and I've taken the same advanced classes. I've been to plenty of awards ceremonies and already I've been offered free rides at good colleges and I'm only a Junior. I believe I've earned the right to speak on your level considering I meet the same qualifications as you (some of which I haven't listed, mind you). You're on a website that includes a lot of intellectuals. An SAT score doesn't measure how smart someone is. Believe me I know. I've seen our validictorian get a horrible score and a few not-as-good students get pretty high scores. Age is definitely something to consider, although not to discriminate against. There is a thread on here called, "Why this scientist believes in God". A scientist that believes in God. I know I said I abondoned this post but I didn't want to let this one go. From now on I'll post on here when it isn't about something as controversial as atheism-religion. I'm only 17 and I can already say that with age comes wisdom, and if you haven't realized that, then your mind is still a bit too young. With your great accomplishments, don't you believe that you will become even more smarter as you grow older?

Votes + Comments
Smart.. I just wish you were on the right side ;)
You're very intelligent.
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I just got back from my Christian Development Class about an hour ago and ironically, my pastor was talking about how he used to be an atheist... this will probably show you how intelligent he really is.

-One day his father wanted him to go on some kind of trip with him... (I think it was supposed to be a Christian get together), which he of course resisted because he didn't want to be around people like that. Anyway, his dad finally pressured him into going and when they were getting ready to leave, his dad surprised him by bringing 3 other ministers along with him. Through the whole trip there and back, my pastor completely destroyed them with his philosophies and questions of Christianity that they had never been faced with. He said that they were "unequipped to challenge him." And he was right, because by the time they got back, 2 of the men quit the ministry completely. He said that the other one debated with him pretty well though. And he was only a teenager at this time.

Sounds like me ;-)

Does he think that atheists go to hell? I would think he might have a different view than most christians on that matter.

With age comes wisdom. And if you're going to brag then I can too. My SAT score was higher than yours, and I've taken the same advanced classes. I've been to plenty of awards ceremonies and already I've been offered free rides at good colleges and I'm only a Junior. I believe I've earned the right to speak on your level considering I meet the same qualifications as you (some of which I haven't listed, mind you). You're on a website that includes a lot of intellectuals.

What did you get in 8th grade? I know I am on a website thate includes a lot of intellectuals, thats why I joined ;-)
My friend got a 1380 but he is one year older than me.

With age comes wisdom.

True, but age also brings the loss of many things. (creativity mainly)

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Sounds like me ;-)

Does he think that atheists go to hell? I would think he might have a different view than most christians on that matter.

Does it even matter, since you are atheist? But to answer your question, yes.
-Why do you continue to talk about an eternity [hell], that you claim doesn't exist?

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With age comes wisdom. And if you're going to brag then I can too. My SAT score was higher than yours, and I've taken the same advanced classes. I've been to plenty of awards ceremonies and already I've been offered free rides at good colleges and I'm only a Junior. I believe I've earned the right to speak on your level considering I meet the same qualifications as you (some of which I haven't listed, mind you). You're on a website that includes a lot of intellectuals. An SAT score doesn't measure how smart someone is. Believe me I know. I've seen our validictorian get a horrible score and a few not-as-good students get pretty high scores. Age is definitely something to consider, although not to discriminate against. There is a thread on here called, "Why this scientist believes in God". A scientist that believes in God. I know I said I abondoned this post but I didn't want to let this one go. From now on I'll post on here when it isn't about something as controversial as atheism-religion. I'm only 17 and I can already say that with age comes wisdom, and if you haven't realized that, then your mind is still a bit too young. With your great accomplishments, don't you believe that you will become even more smarter as you grow older?

That's awesome, sk8!

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Yes, it is illegal.. but do you think they care? It's all about jesus and spreading the word of god! They don't care about the law.. They are faithful only to jesus..

It's true, most atheists don't want to debate Christians for this very reason.. However, I am too headstrong, and I thought I could convert you with simple logic and science.. I was obviously wrong.

As I sit back and read your reasoning, I can understand what you mean. This multi-dimensional God, who knows all things, looks down upon the Earth as we come across decisions that we must make. God sees, and understands why we choose what we choose. And he does not interfere except where it is destined. However, does this truly constitute free will? Yes, to us on Earth, it appears to be free will. But, God knows what we will choose, so how do we really have a choice at all? If, for instance, I knew my own destiny then I would take steps to change my destiny and make my life more successful. I could see how and when I would die, and I would try to change it. If I did this then it would be free will, and God would not know exactly what I would do since I have tampered with his plan. It is only free will if others do not know what decisions you will make.

On another note.. doesn't God create all things? If he does, then why would he create people that he knows (through predestination) would be evil? Why does God not tamper with his predestination plan? Why does he allow murders, natural disasters, and people to doubt him? If he was all-powerful then what the hell would be the point of creating us in the first place? Why have a heaven and a hell? Why allow people to die brutal deaths? Why allow people to never know anything about him?

Now see? This is a way to debate without angering people. You can make your point without offending anybody. Unfortunately when it comes to things like this you won't change your mind and I won't change mine. No reason we can't get along just fine (bring the physics thread back dude).

To answer those questions: We can't know our destiny, so that theory is thrown out the window.

(I say these things as though they are factual, but for you to comprehend it yourself, just think of it as an idea for now) God knows us so well (I said I abondoned this thread but I can't help it, lol) that he can see our motives. Like you said he created us, so he knows what kinds of decisions we will make. That's how he knows our "destiny" just because he knows us better than we do ourselves. He gave us free will, so we don't have to accept him. If we don't accept him that is our choice (a choice he gave us). It's not that he created evil people. It's that he created people with free will and some use that free will in a way that they are considered "evil" as I think you put it. I'm not calling you evil. A lot of people believe in God as a clock setter. He made the universe and us and let it be to watch what happens and interacts as he thinks necessary. If one chooses not to believe in him that's okay because he doesn't need him/her. He created us as his children and some have chosen not to follow His word. But he gave you free will so that decision is up to you. But the truth is, if you don't believe in him, you won't be received in heaven (this is what christians believe, don't get mad at me if you disagree, I'm just putting it out there). Just because he created us doesn't mean we will obey Him. Just like you can create a son or daughter of your own and he or she doesn't have to obey you and then you punish him or her. In this case it's much more serious, because we are more aware of our actions and consequences than a small child.

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so whats your SAT score sk8ndestroy14?

Do you believe that all other religions are wrong except yours? And that all of them will be sentenced to eternal damnation...I mean I believe that every else besides atheists are wrong but at least I do not claim they will suffer....

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I just got back from my Christian Development Class about an hour ago and ironically, my pastor was talking about how he used to be an atheist... this will probably show you how intelligent he really is.

-One day his father wanted him to go on some kind of trip with him... (I think it was supposed to be a Christian get together), which he of course resisted because he didn't want to be around people like that. Anyway, his dad finally pressured him into going and when they were getting ready to leave, his dad surprised him by bringing 3 other ministers along with him. Through the whole trip there and back, my pastor completely destroyed them with his philosophies and questions of Christianity that they had never been faced with. He said that they were "unequipped to challenge him." And he was right, because by the time they got back, 2 of the men quit the ministry completely. He said that the other one debated with him pretty well though. And he was only a teenager at this time.

Very interesting.. It might be neat to meet this guy, and see what he has to say. I can't understand why an atheist would convert.. unless he/she was old, and close to death..

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lol...age makes you religious! That gives me an idea. Can you ask this guy why he became a christian? I have never heard of a atheist converting to a religion...

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>so whats your SAT score sk8ndestroy14?

I've taken the SAT once and I plan on retaking it because I'm not fully satisfied with it. My combined reading and math score is 1350. I knew every math question except one (which now I understand) but I must have made a few of those 'dumb' mistakes that just slip your mind. Because my math score was a low (for me at least, I think) 720. I expect to get an 800 next time, or at least hope to.

Well, I don't like to say that every religions is wrong except mine, but in general I have to say yes. Buddhism believes that we can all get along and they don't fight the christian belief but rather embrace and I completely respect that. Islam is a religion in which the word itself means "Peace" and from what I know about it that's what they're all about. Jews believe in many of the same things as Christians. As for these religions I don't want to say they are wrong because their ideas are as I explained them. But eternal damnation is a difficult subject to talk about at all. I would say yes, but there are a few reasons. Keep in mind that for you to believe that eternal damnation is a negative, and a real thing for that matter, you have to understand other parts of the religion. You can't dismiss part of it without the rest of it. Having said that, if someone didn't want eternal damnation, they could pray to God, simple as that. They don't even need a religion. They can say, "What's right? Is it Judaism, christianity, what do I do?" Even if they don't know which God they are praying to (as Christians believe) God will hear you and see that you are asking for help. He will lead you the right way. There is no way you could be led the wrong way. What the bible calls false idols are man made Gods in which people of those religions have not made an attempt to pray to the Lord. And so they haven't recognized or even seeked for their own Creator. I don't like the idea of a generally good person being damned to eternal hell, but without even an attempt to look for God how else would they be accepted into His domain? I know it seems inhumane to understand, but try this. It's a challenge, especially for an atheist. Read the bible front to back, in order without skipping a verse. Do it objectively without making judgement until you've finished reading it. You seem like an intellectual person so reading a long book shouldn't be too hard for you. Afterwards, whether you agree with it or not, you'll have all the answers to your questions except for the very very in depth ones.

And personally, I don't think your father's not eating meat on Fridays is stupid. It's meant as a sacrafice. As if to say, "I'm giving up something to prove (at least in a small way) that I am true." Take something that you are devoted to and prove you are true to it by taking something away that you enjoy but can be without. I don't participate in not eating meat on Fridays or Lent because I am not Catholic. And this post isn't meant to convert you, but to widen your scope. So please don't take any offense from it.

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With age comes wisdom. And if you're going to brag then I can too. My SAT score was higher than yours, and I've taken the same advanced classes. I've been to plenty of awards ceremonies and already I've been offered free rides at good colleges and I'm only a Junior. I believe I've earned the right to speak on your level considering I meet the same qualifications as you (some of which I haven't listed, mind you). You're on a website that includes a lot of intellectuals. An SAT score doesn't measure how smart someone is. Believe me I know. I've seen our validictorian get a horrible score and a few not-as-good students get pretty high scores. Age is definitely something to consider, although not to discriminate against. There is a thread on here called, "Why this scientist believes in God". A scientist that believes in God. I know I said I abondoned this post but I didn't want to let this one go. From now on I'll post on here when it isn't about something as controversial as atheism-religion. I'm only 17 and I can already say that with age comes wisdom, and if you haven't realized that, then your mind is still a bit too young. With your great accomplishments, don't you believe that you will become even more smarter as you grow older?

That is true, wisdom does accompany age.. And I also agree that the SAT does not truly measure intelligence.. I did not do that well relative to my rank in class.. The test is more literature oriented.. The math is child's play, but that reading section is a killer! The witting isn't too bad, but still.. People who do well in English class usually do better than the math people. This year, we had 8 national merit finalists (scored within the top 1/2% of everyone who took the PSAT junior year, I think), and most of these people were not ranked in the top 15-20 people (5%).. But congrats to you as well, I'm just glad that I'm finally out of high school! :)

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lol...age makes you religious! That gives me an idea. Can you ask this guy why he became a christian? I have never heard of a atheist converting to a religion...

I've seen it before. I've seen people fall to their knees crying because they found Jesus. It's really something to see. It would seem sad but it really isn't. But I've also seen it go the other way around, usually when one feels betrayed by it, not that they don't actually believe it, but because maybe they feel guilty of something and will feel better if they could just believe that such a thing wasn't real, or something along the lines. You speak of eternal damnation a lot and what a lot of people don't realize (again not trying to convert) is that it's something that's very easy to escape.

On that note, I've also met atheists that believe religion is a very positive thing. They don't believe in it themselves, but they think it gives people morals, and something to believe in. It is positive for the community and for humanity.

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That is true, wisdom does accompany age.. And I also agree that the SAT does not truly measure intelligence.. I did not do that well relative to my rank in class.. The test is more literature oriented.. The math is child's play, but that reading section is a killer! The witting isn't too bad, but still.. People who do well in English class usually do better than the math people. This year, we had 8 national merit finalists (scored within the top 1/2% of everyone who took the PSAT junior year, I think), and most of these people were not ranked in the top 15-20 people (5%).. But congrats to you as well, I'm just glad that I'm finally out of high school! :)

You graduated? Congratulations! Today was the last day for seniors at my school so my girlfriend is happy. But yeah, I agree. The math was easy and ridiculously easy for the ACT. I don't like the writing section at all and I'm not too fond of the reading section either. 2100 isn't bad at all.

I have a question for you even though it may be a little off topic. What political orientation are you? I remember you saying that you were in young republicans but at the same time you don't like the whole Christian thing that is around your community. Most conservatives are Christians, but not all. And Texas seems to be a pretty conservative area. I was just wondering.

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On that note, I've also met atheists that believe religion is a very positive thing. They don't believe in it themselves, but they think it gives people morals, and something to believe in. It is positive for the community and for humanity.

Yea, I would agree with that.

You graduated? Congratulations! Today was the last day for seniors at my school so my girlfriend is happy. But yeah, I agree. The math was easy and ridiculously easy for the ACT. I don't like the writing section at all and I'm not too fond of the reading section either. 2100 isn't bad at all.

Yep, headn to Rice U for computer engineering next year.. Just glad this year is over.. It has been really hellish. Yea, 2175 is what I got on the SAT, if I can remember. I didn't do too well on the ACT.. I took Math 2 SAT subject test, u.s. history, and physics (which was a beast!). I only did well on the math level 2 test.

I have a question for you even though it may be a little off topic. What political orientation are you? I remember you saying that you were in young republicans but at the same time you don't like the whole Christian thing that is around your community. Most conservatives are Christians, but not all. And Texas seems to be a pretty conservative area. I was just wondering.

Haha.. yea, I'm the only conservative atheist that I know of. I'm really more fiscally republican and socially democratic.. There are things I like from both parties, and I tend to just vote for people whom I like regardless of party affiliation. I think things are good the way they are.. There are many Christians, but thats good for us atheists.

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