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Has my opinion changed? No. They're still all just a bunch of crooks and thugs. Do I regret voting for Obama? Yes, but I probably would have regretted voting for McCain too. Unfortunately, the recession changed all the rules for everyone. No one can foretell the future, so Obama and Bush tried to buy our way out of that situation. Whether it worked or not will probably not be known for several (or many) years.

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If we would have voted for McCain, he would still not have realized that there is a recession going on. Might just be God's blessing.

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OMG! How could you even consider Palin as VP?

Whats the difference female ding bat or male ding bat??? Later---

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OMG! How could you even consider Palin as VP?

OMG! How could you even consider Obama as POTUS?


(You couldn't even make an attempt at a response that wasn't an ad hominem attack? Disappointing.)

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OMG! How could you even consider Palin as VP?

I'd rather have had her as POTUS, but that wasn't an option

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Huge win for him with this Health Care Bill passage, whatever one may think of the bill itself. I expect this'll send his popularity way up with his base, which was having some buyer's remorse.

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It won't. 85% of Americans (last I heard, may be higher) don't like that thing.
And then there was the utterly undemocratic way it was pushed through congress which pisses even more people off.

All in all a great show of communist style government.

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It won't. 85% of Americans (last I heard, may be higher) don't like that thing.
And then there was the utterly undemocratic way it was pushed through congress which pisses even more people off.

All in all a great show of communist style government.

That's 85% of Tea party members, some pretending to be Americans.

Well anyway, the poll was right on to the winner!

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It won't. 85% of Americans (last I heard, may be higher) don't like that thing.
And then there was the utterly undemocratic way it was pushed through congress which pisses even more people off.

All in all a great show of communist style government.

So, somehow it is okay when Republicans do these things but undemocratic when Democrats do it? 85%? Nah, not even close and the truly fun thing is that when the polls ask about the specific things in the bill, 75% of the Americans are all for them.

And how do you people actually come up with that 'communist' crap? You are so whack you can't even use the language with any actual sense of reality. I think it is your ODS that is getting so bad you have lost control what little sense you have/had.

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The idea of a universal heal care is an honorable one. The problem is that the program will more than likely bankrupt the nation. Where are we going to get the several trillion dollars per year to pay for it? Answer: taxes. Our (both private and business) taxes will more than likely double over the next 5-10 years.

1

The answer to increased cost (which is inevitable in any socialist healthcare system, ALL countries having one have this) is to 1) increase taxes and 2) reduce service.
Needed procedures don't get performed because quota are met, people are left to suffer and die because there aren't enough beds and doctors to treat them or simply because the required procedure isn't allowed to be performed on them or medication can't be prescribed because it's not on some list of things that are "approved" for their condition.

This has nearly killed both my parents at least once, until they got their private extension policy to the government dictated service to pay for life saving medication that would otherwise have been denied them.
Expect a mass increase in medical errors as doctors can't spend the time and means required to do a proper job (and simply no longer care, as it's a loosing battle against the system anyway).

I've observed this first hand, and heard about it from many others in several countries with government run healthcare systems.

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The idea of a universal heal care is an honorable one. The problem is that the program will more than likely bankrupt the nation. Where are we going to get the several trillion dollars per year to pay for it? Answer: taxes. Our (both private and business) taxes will more than likely double over the next 5-10 years.

Who is paying now for all those folks that cannot pay their health bill?

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Who is paying now for all those folks that cannot pay their health bill?

The whiners never seem to think about this question, do they?

They also talk about all the failed 'socialist' medical care in other countries but don't seem to be able to come up with any actual country names.

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The answer to increased cost (which is inevitable in any socialist healthcare system, ALL countries having one have this) is to 1) increase taxes and 2) reduce service.
Needed procedures don't get performed because quota are met, people are left to suffer and die because there aren't enough beds and doctors to treat them or simply because the required procedure isn't allowed to be performed on them or medication can't be prescribed because it's not on some list of things that are "approved" for their condition.

This has nearly killed both my parents at least once, until they got their private extension policy to the government dictated service to pay for life saving medication that would otherwise have been denied them.
Expect a mass increase in medical errors as doctors can't spend the time and means required to do a proper job (and simply no longer care, as it's a loosing battle against the system anyway).

I've observed this first hand, and heard about it from many others in several countries with government run healthcare systems.

And we all know that medical insurance industry has never denied anyone any medical procedure or medication nor allowed anyone to die untreated.

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13 states are suing federal government saying the bill is unconstitutional.

WA attorney general has probably committed political suicide by joining this group.

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I was surprised to see this thread. Politics usually polarizes people. Potential friends become confirmed enemies. I usually save my political blogging for the political sites. Daily KOS and "Right Minds" are my two favorites, though I haven't contributed to either site in a year or more.

My opinion is that universal health care, while being a nice dream, is also a pipe dream. The one and only way for Govt. run health care to succeed is for the country in question to become socialist, in fact if not in name. That will be the death of the industry, all industry.

Two factors contributed to our becoming a world leader in every category, including medicine; free capitalism and a Laissez-faire policy. As soon as govt. gets it's greedy, sticky and corrupt little fingers into the mix, all costs go up while the rate of advancement goes down.

This is true for all parties and "ideologies" (placed in quotes because there seems to be no ideals involved any more), not just the current administration, though the Lib/Dem side seems to gravitate more to the socialist system.

I probably won't revisit this thread, I get enough political stimulation from Fox and CNN. I would be happy to debate on a one on one basis. Just drop me a line.

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And we all know that medical insurance industry has never denied anyone any medical procedure or medication nor allowed anyone to die untreated.

That's a business transaction between you, the insurer, and the doctor.
It's not a legal diktat that you can't be treated because you're too old, young, rich, poor, have the wrong colour of skin, or simply because some cabinet member's mistress needed a new private jet and now the healthcare budget is expended.

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The whiners never seem to think about this question, do they?

No. "They" don't. And again with the ad hominem attacks -- I don't think you're capable of having a discussion without them.

They also talk about all the failed 'socialist' medical care in other countries but don't seem to be able to come up with any actual country names.

There are plenty of examples from Canada and the NHS as well as the VA, and doesn't Medicare or Medicaid lead the US in denying claims?

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I was surprised to see this thread. Politics usually polarizes people. Potential friends become confirmed enemies. I usually save my political blogging for the political sites. Daily KOS and "Right Minds" are my two favorites, though I haven't contributed to either site in a year or more.

I tend to avoid political conversations in certain sites as well. I began this thread a long time ago and wanted to follow up on it years later.

But I do agree with your opinion.

My opinion is that universal health care, while being a nice dream, is also a pipe dream. The one and only way for Govt. run health care to succeed is for the country in question to become socialist, in fact if not in name. That will be the death of the industry, all industry.

Two factors contributed to our becoming a world leader in every category, including medicine; free capitalism and a Laissez-faire policy. As soon as govt. gets it's greedy, sticky and corrupt little fingers into the mix, all costs go up while the rate of advancement goes down.

This is true for all parties and "ideologies" (placed in quotes because there seems to be no ideals involved any more), not just the current administration, though the Lib/Dem side seems to gravitate more to the socialist system.

I probably won't revisit this thread, I get enough political stimulation from Fox and CNN. I would be happy to debate on a one on one basis. Just drop me a line.

Your choice; your opinion as well. I think the "right" needs more representation online, not less. But to each his own.

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we do indeed, but if you're getting insults and harassment spewed at you at every turn it's hard to keep participating.
When it turns to actual verifiable threats it's downright dangerous (hasn't happened to me yet, but to some people I've met).

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i'm afraid that if the Birchers and Teabaggers find out i'm a card-carrying pinko batshit liberal pantywaist, they will stop giving me positive rep in the C forums.


.

Edited by jephthah: n/a

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No. "They" don't. And again with the ad hominem attacks -- I don't think you're capable of having a discussion without them.

Sorry Dave but if you are going to throw around such phrases, you might try to understand what the actual phrase means

There are plenty of examples from Canada and the NHS as well as the VA, and doesn't Medicare or Medicaid lead the US in denying claims?

I understand that Canada is a country (though I don't see how you can point to it as failed) but I see no country name NHS, BA nor Medicare/Medicaid. Talk about your weird inability to have a logical discussion, wow.

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we do indeed, but if you're getting insults and harassment spewed at you at every turn it's hard to keep participating.
When it turns to actual verifiable threats it's downright dangerous (hasn't happened to me yet, but to some people I've met).

Sorry to hear that you are being harassed; harassment from either side of the spectrum is reprehensible; on the other hand you are not particularly adverse to 'spewing insults' in your posts.

Edited by GrimJack: n/a

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That's a business transaction between you, the insurer, and the doctor.

No it is not a business contract - unless you consider that the insurer can at any time abrogate its contract standard business transactions.

It's not a legal diktat that you can't be treated because you're too old, young, rich, poor, have the wrong colour of skin, or simply because some cabinet member's mistress needed a new private jet and now the healthcare budget is expended.

This paragraph is just completely absurdist diatribe that has no pertinence to the discussion.

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There are plenty of examples from Canada and the NHS as well as the VA, and doesn't Medicare or Medicaid lead the US in denying claims?

I understand that Canada is a country (though I don't see how you can point to it as failed) but I see no country name NHS, BA nor Medicare/Medicaid.

I mentioned,

There are plenty of examples from Canada and the NHS as well as the VA, and doesn't Medicare or Medicaid lead the US in denying claims?

I was hoping you understood what "examples" meant.

NHS is the socialized medical program in the UK. The VA is America's best example of socialized medicine (I'll assume that was a typo).

Medicare and Medicaid are also American examples of government (read: socialized) medical programs. These, too, have plenty of examples of failure when it comes to patient care

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leftists never understand (or choose to understand, which amounts to the same thing) anything they don't like (or rather, that their Leaders tell them they don't like, as they're incapable of independent thought).
It's the only possible way that their utter lack of common sense can be explained.

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wow... self-righteous much? :icon_rolleyes:

speaking of "Leaders" and being incapable of "independent thought" do you get your rants from Glenn Beck or Rush Limbaugh, or do you just synthesize Fox News talking points in general?

Edited by jephthah: n/a

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