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"Science cannot explain this, therefore God must exist" because science CAN and HAS explained it.

Vernon, you are right, it's not a healthy discussion if we say Science cannot prove everything, which means God must be there. if, then so, why do you demigod Science,

Ok tell me one thing, If Science is one Great media which can explain everything, why it cannot stop unpredictable earthquakes, aftermaths, they would still warn you, but there won't be nothing harmful as much as happened before.

Science cannot stop loss of death ?, does it ?, Science cannot stop evil thinking,

I don't mean to say that as per my minimum contradictive logics can prove that god is there, but i would say, all the things happening on this planet, means that there is a power, superpower. which is in every being :).

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are you sure?no its not jesus!at least isnt the first one...there are more than 25 religious guys with that characteristics but the very first was Osiris egyptian god.
anyway if you want watch the docymentary...

So you mean to say from age to age, from every Historian to Historian, copied each other versions of stories, right? :)

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Vernon, you are right, it's not a healthy discussion if we say Science cannot prove everything, which means God must be there. if, then so, why do you demigod Science,

I have no clue what you are talking about. I never made the argument "Science cannot prove everything, which means God must be there". An agnostic who doesn't think science proves everything wouldn't make that argument. I simply said that if one makes that argument as an argument for God's existence, then one must at least pick an example that science can't explain in order to get anywhere, childbirth not being one of them. I also defy you to find anyplace where I demigod Science.


If Science is one Great media which can explain everything...

You'll have to ask someone who believes or said that science can explain everything. That isn't me, as I clearly stated in earlier posts.


I'll re-summarize my positions.

  1. I'm an agnostic.
  2. I think science explains a lot of things.
  3. I think science will explain more and more as it progresses.
  4. It will never explain everything. If I thought it could, I imagine I'd be an atheist.
  5. It explains a whole bunch of things that previously were used to prove God's existence. It may some day explain some of the things that are used to prove God's existence today.
  6. The burden of proof is on the theists.
  7. If I saw something that seemed to completely contradict all scientific thought (i.e. not something that science merely can't explain, but rather something that you'd have to pretty much throw science out the window for - someone flying, corpses re-animating, turning water into wine, etc.), I'd probably become a believer.
Votes + Comments
Calm down or you are going to explode
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Let's start with the basics. What is actually God? A divine being or...

He is the only One, creator of the universe, and the judge of humankind. He is unique and inherently one , all-merciful and omnipotent.

I have no clue what you are talking about. I never made the argument "Science cannot prove everything, which means God must be there". An agnostic who doesn't think science .........

I Think its my fault I misunderstood you at first I apologize for that :)

Edited by abelLazm: n/a

Votes + Comments
Is not your fault
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So who is the real god or are there more than one god?

Edited by jingda: n/a

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That depends upon one's believes.....As In my Opinion Allah is the real God and he is the only one But that is not what every one has the faith in

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I Think its my fault I misunderstood you at first I apologize for that :)

No apology necessary, but thank you.

Calm down or you are going to explode

I'm perfectly calm. I only get angry when I think people are intentionally misstating my positions. I don't think anyone did that here. I'm happy to back up anything I say. I'm just clarifying/re-iterating what that is.

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There are rumours that Allah and jesus is the same god. Because some part of the bible and the Qur'an have the same stories. Are they really the same?

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Look what Muslims believe is that Islam and Christianity are both religions of One Allah Christ (AKA EEsa in Islam) and Muhammad (PBUH) are the Prophet sent by Allah to this world to guide His people.... Quran and Bible both Contain His words the religion was started by Christ and completed by Muhammad That is what Islam is all about and if you study both these religions you will finds many things in common but the thing which we lack today is true and proper guidance and understanding of each-other and our religion

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I think religion and believes are one's personal matter everyone believes what he wants to believe we need to be clear about our belief and that's it nothing more or less we don't have to enforce others to do what we do, to believe what we believe . the only thing what we can do is to be confident on our own believes :)

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The multitudes of religions purporting to 'believe in God' exist merely because individuals are free to express their particular belief.. often for personal glory, delusion, or power. That corruption and delusion exists in many if not most religions demonstrates their human origins. Just as with religion, bad attitudes don't necessarily create good science nor invalidate good science. (Example: the refusal of doctors to accept the fact of sepsis spread by their unhygenic 'science')

As an earlier poster mentioned.. there is a continuous similarity down from before the age of the Egyptians until today, repeating many 'doctrines' as 'religious truths'. This merely demonstrates the gullibility and willingness of many to swallow anything that makes them feel good/secure/unworthy/..

Some (me) regard it as presumptious to inflict human reasoning upon the true God. Sadly, and as was pointed out by Jesus, it is only those who make the effort to learn about and actually DO the will of the God of the Bible, that become free of all the religious misinformation in circulation.

Science only has the ability to discover what already exists i.e. placed there by a divine being.. God. Those who pontificate about there being no God are as deluded as those who pontificate about the doctrines developed by humans that are called and assumed to be true religion.

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So, god, what's the point of him? Is he so insecure that he needs fawning, suffering, following, prayers, hymns, psalms, a few biographies? A god like that would not be able to build the universe. He'd give up once it got a little difficult.

Edited by diafol: n/a

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@ardav..

Is it not reasonable to assume that if God wants humans to get to know Him and His purposes he would provide a means for them to do so?

The (human) problem is that it requires an unbiased and non-judgemental outlook to be able to read the Bible with the intent of discovering what questions it answers and how it explains the relative roles of God (the creator) and humans (the created). To put it another way.. before we start reading, remove all the religious mental crud that we have been subjected to for most of our lives!

Your post above unfortunately includes a number of expressions NOT taught in the Bible, but a product of the massive religious misinformation agenda, described as false teachings at best.. and fraud at worst.

Don't get concerned about what heaven is like.. it's very unlikely you will be going there, nor to 'hell', incidentally. That's another blatant lie perpetrated by false religions and not a teaching of the Bible!

God is not insecure.. far from it.. He is patiently giving humans the time and a chance to gain a better life here on earth in the near future. Nobody is compelled to share in what he is offering.. they merely need to be willing to first clear out the false religious crud! :)

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God is not insecure.. far from it.. He is patiently giving humans the time and a chance to gain a better life here on earth in the near future. Nobody is compelled to share in what he is offering.. they merely need to be willing to first clear out the false religious crud!

How do you know? Where did you get this information? Is it freely available? Can I Google it?

Crud is crud :) No offence.

BTW - I took out some of my comments, I thought they were childish and argumentative on reading them back. Sorry boyne.

Anyway, say I want to find a path to 'The God'. How do I do that? To whom do I listen? DO I follow Mohammed, Jesus, the next Jewish messiah (is he out yet?), Shiva, etc... Does it matter? Do I try to find (and therefore define) my own god? Is it enough to be pure of heart, in deed and thought? If so, do I really need one?

Edited by diafol: n/a

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How can such lesser things as cars, homes, nuclear generated power, books, images and the like have an intelligent creator but the most wonderful of all things, the human brain, we know comes about by chance?

A creator is mathematically correct while everything coming about by chance is mathematically incorrect. If you start with nothing and add nothing to it, nothing is your result. Only if you first have something, can you perform mathematics, thus making the universe and all that is in it possible.

Put another way, if you start with chaos and chance, only chaos and chance (and the resulting lawlessness) can result. Of course chaos and chance do not exist but rather mathematical formula that are much too long for us to use practically.

If you take practically anything that man has created (see above) and mix it in a blender (or a box or a bag or whatever) for an infinite number of years, it will never, ever be assembled assemble by chance. Of course you need the parts and the mixing agent to begin with.

Of all of the evolutionary theories that are posed and taught as facts, none of them even remotely begin to explain the characteristic of LOVE unique to humans. Love is also practically useless and is even a disadvantage when considering survival of the fittest. Ultimately though, it dominates our world whether of the pure form (other humans) or of a corrupt deviant variety (love of things).

Again in regards to LOVE, if the human brain is the 'horn' or 'claw' or 'talon' of humankind, why ever did evolution waste so much emotional, physical and mental energy on LOVE?

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(Example: the refusal of doctors to accept the fact of sepsis spread by their unhygenic 'science')

I always love it when people trying to knock down science end up demonstrating the main strength of scientific inquiry. Obviously, the reason you can cite this example is because 'science' figured out that there was a problem and addressed it.
I don't see any examples of non-science doing this sort of thing. When the church changes its dogma on, say "transubstantiation", it doesn't come up with anything that's noticeably more accurate in describing the world. It just shuffles around the balnoey they're feeding you, replacing the stale-dated stuff with a fresher package.
Once again, Randall Murroe says it best.

Some (me) regard it as presumptious to inflict human reasoning upon the true God.

There's a nice tongue-in-cheek "proof" that either the Biblical God is not real or else that the Bible is not true. Goes something like this: According to the Bible, God made up everything that is. That means, among other things, he came up with people, and specifically, it came up with their brains. The brain is an amazing instrument for filtering ideas and sorting out the bad ones, and keeping the better ones for further study. This instrument has given us great literature, great music, great art, great philosophical systems, all the religions in the world, and, incidentally, the science that produced the technology that feeds us, clothes us, and allows us to have this conversation right now.
If I'd come up with that instrument, I'd be pretty proud of it. In fact, I'd think it the best thing I'd done, and anyone who I gave it to would have to treat that with some respect, or I'd get pretty pissed. In fact, if I were God, I'd look at people who believe things which are manifestly not true, not sensible, or not proveable, and base their lives on those things, and I'd get some smiting done. We're talking about lots and lots of boils, just for starters.

But wait - it says in the Bible that I'm made in the image of God. Therefore, God agrees with me on this (because I'm just a mirror of him), according to the Bible.
Well, if that's true, then there's no way God exists, because the people who believe in him are not getting smote left, right, and center.

So either Man is not made in God's image, or God doesn't exist. Take your pick.

Science only has the ability to discover what already exists i.e. placed there by a divine being.. God. Those who pontificate about there being no God are as deluded as those who pontificate about the doctrines developed by humans that are called and assumed to be true religion.

So what you're saying is that the the god hypothesis is compatible with any practical outcome of any experiment you can devise. What that means is that that hypothesis is not falsifiable, and therefore meaningless. Okay, you said it and I agree. Let's not bother with meaningless hypotheses.

Edited by jon.kiparsky: n/a

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> How can such lesser things as cars, homes, nuclear generated power, books, images and the like have an intelligent creator but the most wonderful of all things, the human brain, we know comes about by chance?

Oh FFS, not the old Intelligent Design codswallop again. The brain and everything else came about by chance of course it did. Everything is probability. Just because we are unable to accurately calculate the fundamental probabilities of things happening at the quantum scale, which ultimately manifest themselves in the macro world, does not mean that chaos begats chaos.

Is crystallization a design? Is condensation or solidification? No, but they decrease the degree of disorder or randomness. Evolution is a mature theory and can be used to explain how the human eye came into being. Admittedly, only few theories can be considered complete (if that), and evolution has its issues.

If you take practically anything that man has created (see above) and mix it in a blender (or a box or a bag or whatever) for an infinite number of years, it will never, ever be assembled assemble by chance. Of course you need the parts and the mixing agent to begin with.

I agree, it's highly unlikely anyway. Once you have life and evolution, directing entropy on a small scale, that's when things become interesting. Mind you, you don't need life to produce order from chaos. The formation of planets had nothing to do with living beings nor any deity. We can model the formation of a solar system without the need for a supernatural force.

I really don't see where you're going with this LOVE thing either. Is it a single emotion? I very much doubt it. Selflessness could be argued, is a side-effect of our 'selfish' genetics. We all love people, things, ideas. Not all of us need to ascribe that specific emotion to the benevolence of a deity.

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Love is also practically useless and is even a disadvantage when considering survival of the fittest.

Say what? It's the basic engine of evolution. It's a great trick for getting people to make more people, and think they're getting something out of it. And from the people's point of view, they are getting something out of it, which is part of what makes it such a great trick.

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jon, I agree mate. Love (or our notion of a mixed bag of emotions) works. Can you comprehend consciousness (our brand) without love? This I would argue, includes the appreciation of beauty in things. An equatorial sunset would leave you flat. Would we become ants?

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I always love it when people trying to knock down science end up demonstrating the main strength of scientific inquiry. Obviously, the reason you can cite this example is because 'science' figured out that there was a problem and addressed it.

The unfortunate thing was that the bad science of the day was avoidable, and caused many deaths because of ignorance and pig-headedness.. while the answer (correct science) had already been recorded in the Bible book of Leviticus some 3,400 years earlier! We call it maintaining 'good hygiene', in our day. :)

In fact, if I were God, I'd look at people who believe things which are manifestly not true, not sensible, or not proveable, and base their lives on those things, and I'd get some smiting done. We're talking about lots and lots of boils, just for starters.

Now you're talking Bible language.. not that I think you are God. :) Revelation 11:18 says at the end of that verse that God will "bring to ruin those ruining the earth". The question for you is.. is that a positive or negative prediction for your future? Forget the boils, it's much more serious that mere boils!

Further, God's purpose is to restore the earth to the paradise it was always intended to be.. but that's a different topic.

But wait - it says in the Bible that I'm made in the image of God. Therefore, God agrees with me on this (because I'm just a mirror of him), according to the Bible.
Well, if that's true, then there's no way God exists, because the people who believe in him are not getting smote left, right, and center.

So either Man is not made in God's image, or God doesn't exist. Take your pick.

The four attributes of God that we mirror are Love, Power, Justice and Wisdom. However, God has also given us a free will and a conscience with which to exercise those attributes. God cannot therefore be blamed for the misuse of those attributes by mankind. That is why we will all be held accountable for our actions both good and bad, as Revelation states.

That is my understanding and belief in my great future prospects once the 'boils' stage has passed.. what future do non-believers think they and their loved ones have? Is the best they can hope for is to evolve into something better?

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How do you know? Where did you get this information? Is it freely available? Can I Google it?

Crud is crud :) No offence.

BTW - I took out some of my comments, I thought they were childish and argumentative on reading them back. Sorry boyne.

Anyway, say I want to find a path to 'The God'. How do I do that? To whom do I listen? DO I follow Mohammed, Jesus, the next Jewish messiah (is he out yet?), Shiva, etc... Does it matter? Do I try to find (and therefore define) my own god? Is it enough to be pure of heart, in deed and thought? If so, do I really need one?

No offense taken.. :)

The information you ask about has been available in its totality for almost 2000 years.. and it's true to say that it has been the most ignored and/or misrepresented information in the history of mankind! The only source of information that claims to be from the creator is the Bible. Read what the Bible says, and not what church tradition teaches.. the two are not the same!

Yes, you can Google the Bible if you want.. but that's not what you meant, is it? The Bible in total or in part is available to most if not all mankind. Google is not!

To find the path, we have to use common sense and a recognise what is reasonable and does not require belief in doctrines that invoke fear in people, nor fleece them of their hard earned assets. It would not be a waste of time to read the sermon on the mount.. Matthew chapters 5; 6; & 7. The path of least resistance is for us to do nothing and instead nurture our pet beliefs and prejudices.. it's your call!

Votes + Comments
**Bows**
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Religion is not only faith dear it is also how you understand and interprate this faith... religion is not only to go in mosque, temple or church it is how you spend your life how it effects your daily life. Religion is to give you peace of mind, right ways to spend your personal and social life :)

Without faith it is impossible to please God!

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Without faith it is impossible to please God!

You are right without faith every thing is impossible i said religion is not only faith it is a proper code of ethics to spent an organized and civilized life :)

.......Anyway, say I want to find a path to 'The God'. How do I do that? To whom do I listen? DO I follow Mohammed, Jesus, the next Jewish messiah (is he out yet?), Shiva, etc... Does it matter? Do I try to find (and therefore define) my own god? Is it enough to be pure of heart, in deed and thought? If so, do I really need one?

Dear ardav if you want to find truth then you should study and compare all of these religions and their messengers and follow the one you find true but question arises do want or not? if you want it then go for a comparison.... Without trying you cannot find GOD .... Here every one is telling how he/she interprets his faith and belief in GOD they are not talking how you should believe.... for this you have to do some research yourself if you want to

For me my ALLAH is the most beneficent, merciful, lovable and kind :)

Edited by abelLazm: n/a

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Quran and Bible both Contain His words the religion was started by Christ and completed by Muhammad

That being the case though, one of them would have to be telling lies.
Jesus said, 'I am the Way, the Truth and the Life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.'
That would seem to exclude all others.

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That being the case though, one of them would have to be telling lies.

Dear I don't agree with you there is no lie in Quran and Bible (The original not the altered one)

Jesus said, 'I am the Way, the Truth and the Life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.' That would seem to exclude all others.

Yes and the same Quran says ""Then Praise be to Allah, Lord of the heavens and Lord of the earth- Lord and Cherisher of all the worlds! To Him be Glory throughout the heavens and the earth: and He is Exalted in Power, Full of Wisdom!""
So Isn't these are same Jesus and Allah is the same(Jesus is Allah and Allah is Jesus and the one and only) :)

Edited by abelLazm: n/a

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actually, no. Islam sees Jesus as just another prophet, in fact as the second to last prophet before muhammed.
The concept of the holy trinity as Christianity knows it is sacrilige to them.

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Running through the whole of the Bible is the theme of the 'Kingdom', which theme encompasses the writings of what are referred to as the major and minor prophets, leading to the period of Jesus' life and death.

Following the establishing of the Christian congregation (from those who were previously Jews or Jewish proselytes) the scriptures further relate the expansion of the Christian faith throughout the whole world as foretold by Jesus. Matt 24:14.

Also foretold is the end of the earthly system of governments (not yet occurred) which then ushers in the 1000year Kingly reign of Christ.. as we request in our use of what is called the Lord's Prayer or Our Father prayer. ('Let your kingdom come').

There is no scriptural indication nor is there a requirement for other 'prophets' nor their writings to support and add to the Bible. These unnecessary writings include the Book of Mormon, the Koran, Ron L Hubbard's fiction and any other books that claim to provide divine instruction.

Sorry folks.. but that's the reality and this is easily confirmed by personally checking for ourselves the integrity and completeness of the Bible by reading the Bible and not getting sidetracked by spurious church doctrines.

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actually, no. Islam sees Jesus as just another prophet, in fact as the second to last prophet before muhammed.
The concept of the holy trinity as Christianity knows it is sacrilige to them.

What Islam says God is only one and Muhammd (PBUH) and Christ are His beloved Prophets. Muhammad is the last one HE sent to complete what HE wanted to teach people on Earth... And Bible is the Holy Book by GOD and has His words so when in Bible it is written that 'I am the Way, the Truth and the Life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.' then God is talking about HIMSELF not about HIS Prophets...

Edited by abelLazm: n/a

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