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Ok, since incissor was saying how one his professors was pro linux, like a couple that I had. I typed this paper just to push buttons on my professor(he is a programmer), hell I even printed it out on 23 dollar textured paper. Incissor this should give you some ideas to shut the mouth of your or anybody's loud mouth preaching pro linux professors. It always feel good to correct the teacher. So what do you think was the outcome of this attempt?


Computers and computing has enjoyed unprecedented growth for the last three, going on four decades. This growth has lead to both an arrogance and lack of reflection, both of which are readily apparent in virtually all modern operating systems and by leafing through any of the countless open source project forums. No one wants to learn from the past it seems, and so were are left with each generation of programs getting no further than the previous generation. Sure the languages change, way back when it was Modula-2, yesterday it was C++, tomorrow itll be OCML?

IS security history really should be taught in the CS/IS/IT programs, but is it? No of course not. Neither is historical design. What are we left with? NT has inferior ACLs to MULTICS and FreeBSD now has inferior ACLs to NT. Doesnt anyone learn?? The need for security kernels was realized back in 1973, yet I dont guess anyone who is reading this(that means you professor) runs a system with on one it. Automated intrusion detection, the dangers of insufficient argument validation were all known. People talk about Automated intrusion detection like it is some new thing in fact yesterdays class inspired this and does a week go by without reading about a bof or god knows what on bugtraq? Either all of this software is over 30 years old, or really there is no excuse at all.

Perhaps it isnt the programmers fault, perhaps it is the education system. I dont recall a single utterance of things like finite-sate system. However, it seems with open source, so very few programmers these days actually went to school for such things.

Lets see bashed on NT and FreeBSD who is left? Linux developers of the world, listen carefully no matter how much tweaking you do, no matter how many nifty tools you make, no mater how many women in bikinis you photoshop tattoos of Tux on, isnt going to make Linux a modern OS. It has a flawed core design that can never be verified, why not spend your time elsewhere that might actually be useful? Oh and one more note about FreeBSD, you guys are not as inventive as you think, shared memory segments, network firewall, and typed files all existed well before BSD4.2. Oh and Microsoft, Palladium? What the hell are you thinking?

Anyhow programmers, before your next project, please do a little research and see if it has already been done, if so why not work on something else. I know itll take some extra effort to be creative, but Im sure you can manage.

Hahahahah, now that's passsion for you, I always laugh when I read it, I wish I had the original copy.

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Good post, but their pro-linux/open source ways don't bother me. It's their attitude towards people that disagree with them that drives me crazy. They are attitudes that you usually find at the playground of an elementary school. To show you what I mean, here's a post by Michael Dinowitz from alt.comp.lang.coldfusion. He's a well known ColdFusion advocate. In this post he's talking about the ever popular Eric Raymond:

I remember going to a Linux user group meeting a month after I presented CF on Linux to them (which they liked). At the meeting, Eric Raymond was speaking and afterwards I went up to him to say hello and talk to him about all these new Linux users coming from the CF world. His response was to ignore my hand, tell me "Why should I care about ColdFusion when I have Zope" and turn his back to me. No handshake, no nice words, nothing. This seems to be the slashdot stance and I for one really think it sucks. On the other hand it is not the only stance from the Linux world. Jesse Noller from MM is very big on Linux and helps out a LOT with it. The CF-Linux list is almost his alone. :)

He continues here...

Let me actually take this a step further. The month before the incident, I had
spoken at the same user group about CF on Linux and it was very well accepted. Not only did I speak on it, I went through a full install while everyone watched. There was even this old guru looking guy (one of the board I believe) who came up to the screen to look at some code closer. He smiled, nodded and went back to the wall. The CF language had a nod of approval. At that point in time I had a Linux box on my desk at work, a few books on order to read and the future for me using CF on Linux looked great. The CF-Linux list was ready to roll and everyone was happy. Then the raymond incident and I was shocked. He turned me off from Linux. He showed me the dark, selfish side of the Linux world that I didn't NOT want to get into. He turned me off from going anywhere with CF on Linux.

How many others have suffered because of him? How many others have suffered due to slashdots attitudes or the attitudes of others in the Linux and open source world? I know I'm one and I know of a few others. MS sucks, but the attitude that some get from the Linux community sucks even more and has a greater impact. It's not a corporate attitude but a community one. If the Linux community wants to be taken seriously, they're going to have to look at their behavior. Seriously.

Lastly I'd like to finish this post by pasting an article by Digital Ebola on "Linux Bashing 101." I posted a link to this a while back, but I think it's appropriate to reference it again:

Let's talk about something that has been bugging me for the last year.
I meet lots of people, both online, and in real life, in the industry and out,
all computer people. Most poeple do not realise this about me, that I get
around. Some of the nicest people I have met through these channels. That is
why what I am about to say may shock you: the linux community sucks.

I say this as a Linux advocate, as someone that has had contact since late 1995
and as someone that has ran and continues to run as his operating system of
choice. Sure, I have other machines, and they all run a different form of UNIX,
but my main workstation, my baby, runs Linux. And this knowledge has catapulted
me into a thriving industry working with Linux and UNIX in general. I get to
play with Linux everyday, be it at work or at home. I could never do anything
else. I love my career.

Almost everyone I have ever met in the Linux community, save for a handful of
people, are complete assholes. I say this without remorse. It is true. Here is
your first clue that they are assholes: ever ask a Linux person how to do
something? He will probably bash you for not reading the man page, or the
how-to. Even I am guilty of this. But what if you did read the man page? and
the how-to? What then?

I help lots of people with lots of things. It is my job, and some how that
carries to my personal life, and to my online life. I do not mind as much. I can
do almost anything in Linux with ease, even if I have not learned how. Why?
I read the man pages, I read the how-to's and perform general research. I do
not consider this special, I just consider this reading. But some people do.

Some people want a medal for this. You know the type, idling in some #linux
channel somewhere, the "we are here to help" type. Yet, they don't give a damn
about what you have to say. If they don't know it, they will act like they do,
so they won't be looked down on. I have caught several people in this. Why do
these people do this? Who knows, most likely to get into some developers pants,
or to be a general scene whore. The developers themselves for the most part,
are the same way, again save for a few. Everyone wants a piece of the pie.

So, now I have hurt your feelings because you thought you were cool that you
could run a Linux box. BOOHOO! I will tell you why you are not special. For one,
you have just copyed the latest trend in today's computing. Maybe you started
several years back. Thats okay, Linux is the worst chain letter ever created.
Two. Linux itself is a great operating system, and I love it. But the community
has stolen almost everything from BSD, or sad to say Microsoft. Before you go
off saying that I am off my rocker, think about this. You want plug n play
support? You want USB support? You want full hardware support in the OS?
These are things that have been pushed by the devil himself. In 1979, IBM was
the devil, and Microsoft was out to slay them. In 1999, Microsoft became the
devil, according to Linux advocates, and I bet in 2009, when and if Linux has
taken the market, there will be someone else there to slay THEM.

Think I am crazy? No. I am just tired of all this in-fighting between
different distro's, all of these posuer people that act like they want to better
humanity by promoting Linux, yet they talk down to any person they don't know,
and I am tired of watching these people create this image of Linux. They don't
deserve to wreck the community. What gives them the right? Linux has stolen
everything they need, or will need. Just like Microsoft. Don't act holier then
thou, just because you are one of the 13 million that know how to work the thing
, because soon, EVERYONE will know how to work it. Then what will make you
special? hmmmmmm?

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The thing is, there are "zealots" in any of the os camps. Just learn to deal with it and move on. One of my IS professors is a big Mac user, but does not preach about it. He is always interested in my linux experiences, and even asked me to do a demonstration in one of the classes. Another professor only teaches windows apps. classes, but is encouraging in my use of linux where applicable. Maybe I am just lucky to have understanding profs.
I run into a bunch of people on the different boards that I frequent that are just hard headed and staunch supporters of their os of choice. So what, ignore and just move on.

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Another professor only teaches windows apps. classes, but is encouraging in my use of linux where applicable.

Encouragement I don't mind. When someone forces you to use something and tells you that you're an idiot if you don't, especially a professor, it's when it becomes annoying. I've learned to move on, but when you're paying for a class, you're paying to learn, not get annoyed.

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Encouragement I don't mind. When someone forces you to use something and tells you that you're an idiot if you don't, especially a professor, it's when it becomes annoying. I've learned to move on, but when you're paying for a class, you're paying to learn, not get annoyed.

Yes, I believe everyone would have to agree with ya there incissor. ;)

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Encouragement I don't mind. When someone forces you to use something and tells you that you're an idiot if you don't, especially a professor, it's when it becomes annoying. I've learned to move on, but when you're paying for a class, you're paying to learn, not get annoyed.

Do I need to rattle of a list of fortune 500 companies that use IIS & microsoft products to your narrow minded professor?

Your professor may think that, but that tells us nothing. the real question is why? Abstracts like X is better than Y mean nothing if we don't understand what exactly makes X better. It's just more pro "X" people not bring facts to the table. That's what you should shake off, and it's ashame you & others have to.

The problem with computer security these days, they don't teach you anything useful until the post grad level. Before that it is all about basic discretionary access controls and perfectly coded services. While really, neither of these things provide any appreciable security at all. It's not till the master level when you actually start learning about how crappy such systems really are. Then you feel violated, especially when you realize that your own professors(that you pay),that you trusted to teach you, pulled wool over your eyes.
Your professor made a forced recommendation, how is that not an applicable target of trust?

What a narrow viewpoint you professor has.This is why Linux is losing and is going to lose.This isn't about Linux, not now, not ever.
The number of players here go well beyond Gates v Torvalds.I speak of the fritz chip, come on computer science people jump on in.
If linux was smart they'd get on board... otherwise... what processor are you gonna use? Intel and AMD will eventually have the fritz chip embedded very deeply.
Microsoft is just providing answers to questions that the open source community has remained silent on... a potentially fatal mistake.

Thank god, G.W.BUSH funded and still funds nanotechnology. Vote for BUSH/CHENNEY2004 !!!! and keep it alive.
***edit Reason for being Pro Nanotech ,My cousin is one of the few(8) students that has access to the Nano lab at http://www.trinity.edu/physics/

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I have to agree with what you said about the proper history not being taught. I'm about half way done with a cis degree from devry, so i'm not exactly a professional programmer by any means. I try to learn as much as I can on my own. A professor tells me to write a program that does this, and I look for a method to do it other than what was taught. But all they want to teach is the newest technology, without building the knowledgable foundation that technology was founded on. I'm only 21yrs old, and I'm surprised by the number of people that can't even use DOS, or troubleshoot the most simple of pc problems. It's not taught. I could go on forever listing things I think every computer educated person should know. Though I suppose learning a few side things that others won't be taught is a bonus. Should make applying for a career job a little easier for me, and harder for the competition that only knows what they were taught.

Oh, and isn't there a nanotech lab at Penn state? I think its geared towards biology, but that's where I was told Clarion students go when enrolled in the nanotech program.

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Do I need to rattle of a list of fortune 500 companies that use IIS & microsoft products to your narrow minded professor?

You don't need to. They know it already. Probably know more about it than you.

Your professor may think that, but that tells us nothing. the real question is why?

Again, there's no need to. They know why.

So if they know why, why do they stoop down to such ignorant actions? Who knows. Out of ego maybe. I have two professors who know security about OS inside out: from a scientific point of view, to a practical point of view. They also understand the business aspect of it, yet they still act ignorant. Something I'll never understand, and frankly, I don't really give a damn anymore. People like this aren't worth wasting time on.

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im a huge linux advocate and i know exactly what you mean about the linux community being full of ppl who are so die hard for Linux that they hate helping ppl out and are jst play stupid cause they wont even listen to someone elses point of view about something, the thing that really pisses me off is when there is someone defending linux and they dont even have there facts straight about it. But on the other hand there are also a bunch that are really good about helping out others that are new to linux and even listen and having an educated debate about linux and other OS and even other technologies. As for me i love to help ppl out with the stuff that i know about linux (its not a heck of alot but some :) ). i havent had a professor like that yet but i havent take all that many Comp Sci classes at the University level and im sure i will run into a few like that. thats jst my own opinion about it though :)

this a point from John Kerry's webpage jst so you know he plans on supportting and funding nanotechnology :) jst wanted to point this out.
source is on this site http://www.johnkerry.com/issues/urban/ :)

Revitalize the High Technology Sector to Pave the Way for Industries of the Future. Kerry will erase the digital divide and will fight to connect every American family to the Internet, encourage a renewed educational focus on science and math, bring the best practices of operational efficiency from the private sector to the public sector, and restore the government's commitment to scientific achievement through increases in research funding for the Department of Energy, NASA, and the National Science Foundation. Kerry will also strongly support programs targeted at the next generation of innovation, such as nanotechnology and biotechnology research.

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im a huge linux advocate and i know exactly what you mean about the linux community being full of ppl who are so die hard for Linux that they hate helping ppl out and are jst play stupid cause they wont even listen to someone elses point of view about something, the thing that really pisses me off is when there is someone defending linux and they dont even have there facts straight about it. But on the other hand there are also a bunch that are really good about helping out others that are new to linux and even listen and having an educated debate about linux and other OS and even other technologies. As for me i love to help ppl out with the stuff that i know about linux (its not a heck of alot but some :) ). i havent had a professor like that yet but i havent take all that many Comp Sci classes at the University level and im sure i will run into a few like that. thats jst my own opinion about it though :)

this a point from John Kerry's webpage jst so you know he plans on supportting and funding nanotechnology :) jst wanted to point this out.
source is on this site http://www.johnkerry.com/issues/urban/ :)

Yeah, the ignorant people tend to confuse Linux advocacy with Microsoft Bashing. Not just that, but apparently if you use anything from Microsoft, you're a drooling idiot. I don't even try to argue with those people sometimes because they're so far off into their own little insignificant universe, it's not worth the time.

As far as Kerry's web site, sounds good! I say free computers for everyone! Rather than a tax return, we should get a computer with a year of free Internet access. That would encourage a lot of people to get more involved on the Internet.

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yeah and im a Visual Basic programmer so i know how that goes too :) but most of the ppl i talk to jst make fun of me but its not actually be mean or anything its jst for fun :) which i dont mind thats they way most of the guys are at linuxforums.org well my fellow mods there anyway. there are alot of ppl that are really cool and then there are those others that really jst piss you off. i have stopped argueing with alot of the ppl to its jst gets way to sickining

edit: i really like the idea of a new computer with a year of free internet :twisted:

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You don't need to. They know it already. Probably know more about it than you.

Well, to be honest with you, I'm starting to question your professors credentials.
I mean you say he knows alot about security, and he suggest/forces you to use a broke OS. If he knew anything about security beyond post grad level, he would be talking about finite state machines. While he is prolly using that weak OS called linux. Other, MORE educated security driven people, like myself use KSOS, running a collection of various project software from a NeXTStep inspired GUI to multi level secure aware NFS, HTTP, FTP, and SMTP servers all on PDP 11/70 emulation on a 21364 system. Why? Because I like running an OS designed by Ford and I like having a system that is theoretically secure from remote attacks (ah the beauty of finite state machines) makes for good bragging rights...

So, to be honest with you,he still has wool pulled over your eyes. Professor "X" is a joke in the security world, speaking on behalf of the security folks. Perhaps he should sign up and defend his credentials that now I am questioning, through hearsay. Like I said you don't learn anything till the master level.

Again, there's no need to. They know why.

I have taken a decisions science class,and I work with people who have played developmental and auditing roles in several operating systems as well as OS feasibility studies. After all is said and done, where are the fatcs? It's very hard for linus to provide and display facts, that's a fact. I would have made the decision to call him out on that one.

So if they know why, why do they stoop down to such ignorant actions?

Ummmmmmmmmmmmm, maybe cause he can't tell you and the class, or maybe cause you did not challenge him & ask?

Who knows. Out of ego maybe. I have two professors who know security about OS inside out: from a scientific point of view, to a practical point of view.

I'm telling you right now he might be able to say that to 19-24 y/o students, but he would'nt dare to preach that at any of the seminars I attened! Talking about a laughing stock.

Speaking of laughing stock's....John Kerry, aKa "Flip flop John" this guy will cut military funding just like he did in the past. Do I need to rattle off a list of things he cut? Nanotechnology surely means noting to him. Ohhh, the odds are stacked so high.

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I'm telling you right now he might be able to say that to 19-24 y/o students, but he would'nt dare to preach that at any of the seminars I attened! Talking about a laughing stock.

I agree with you here. Personally, I think their decisions arise from ego. Simple as that. I also go to quite a few seminars and shows (IBM, Macromedia, and Microsoft), and if some ignorant person uttered such stupidity, they'd get crucified.

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I agree with you here. Personally, I think their decisions arise from ego. Simple as that.

I don't see why they she/he, would have a ego, based on linux security? I'm with you, simply put, it blow's my mind.No need for futher investigation. After that it's a laughing matter.

You speak of "EGO" & your right,So much of modern computing is based on ego, it is just tragic. People need to get over themselves, stop trying to reinvent the wheel, take a realistic look at the products around them and take it from there!

I also go to quite a few seminars and shows (IBM, Macromedia, and Microsoft), and if some ignorant person uttered such stupidity, they'd get crucified.

I don't tend such seminars, the ones I attend associate with DARPA(Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency) & the likes.

It's just now, in my lifetime/career that I'm realizing that people/programmers are reinventing the wheel, tovalds for example.

"POset confuses me, and since I am the smartest person on earth, it must be bad so I'll leave it out." "I don't know how to make a microkernel so rather than creating something new, I'll use UN*X style system calls which create a performance hit against microkernels so I have an excuse to not use one I'll and end up with a dumbed down version of an operating system that didn't need a dumbed down version." "I am the king of the universe, so I can just do all my projects myself, mature development models are for those stuffy corporate losers." etc, etc.. :lol:

Speaking of professor "X", he should check out KSOS or LOCK to see what a real contender in the most secure OS catagory is.... not that broke OS called linux. :lol:


But ,always a but.......I was taking a look at your home page, I read the following,

Linux still beats it as a server OS though. For recreational or Windows development, Windows wins.

You were joking right?

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But ,always a but.......I was taking a look at your home page, I read the following,

Linux still beats it as a server OS though. For recreational or Windows development, Windows wins.

You were joking right?

Nope. Prove me wrong. I'm 101% confident that if we took a wordly poll, they would agree with me. You might throw every reason in the world at me why you disagree, but you're just one person. However, I know you're probably as eager to "let me have it," so why don't you start with the second sentence, which was:

For recreational or Windows development, Windows wins.

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Nah,not eager.....realz, I just curious about the comment. (<----German, inside joke between me & sicssa) sorry about that thread I couln't find the delete tab.

Ok, in your and the worlds view why is linux the champat serving, that's all not to prove you wrong and what not?( just trying to get some facts)
That would be the best approach instead of a**uming right?

I'd like to start by saying now that Apache finally has a production level (more or lesee anyhow) multi-threaded version of their server(2.x) I have no real complaints about it, that goes for IIS aswell.

But should all fortune 500 companies like wal-mart sam's ect... & all users switch to linux for serving in genral, just because. Not that you said that

"Proving you wrong" if you are reffering to linux/ serving security, that would be too easy.

If you are reffeing to uptimes of home users/mom & pop servers or whatnot, what I were to say that I hjave IIS uptimes well over 520 days now, & what if I were to say that those machines don't even have fans in them, but are still air cooled. Would you be impresses at all with windows serving?

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