Collins: Why this scientist believes in God - Page 35

[christina>you]

But of course I'm going to believe it's the presence of God, I already believe he's omnipotent lol... ahh well.

[joshSCH]

oh of course... even though the ideas of omnipotence and free will are completely contradictory

[christina>you]

Omnipotence and free will?

[joshSCH]

Yea.. As I said much earlier in this debate.. It is impossible for a God to know everything, and for free will to exist. If he knew everything, he would know your every choice, and therefore choice would simply be a deception b/c your future would already be planned- there would be nothing you could do to change your destiny.

[christina>you]

But we don't know what the outcome of our future will be... it's the choices we make that determine our destiny.

[joshSCH]

If that is true- the idea of free will.. Then how would God know what the future is? He wouldn't be able to see into the future b/c we haven't made the choices yet. The idea of free will requires our futures to be blank, the idea that we shape our future.

The idea of omnipotence maintains that the future is set in stone.. our choices have already been decided, our deaths unchangeable..

Think about it for a while be4 posting

[christina>you]

Omnipotence is something that only God obtains.

So to us, our futures are blank because we don't know what tomorrow holds.

^ That's the idea behind it.

[joshSCH]

So God knows our ultimate future? Then what would be the purpose in living? We don't know our outcome, but God does? Then all of our decisions have already been made, and we are already dead..

[christina>you]

How can our decisions be fulfilled before we decide them?

[joshSCH]

If God is omnipotent, then he knows what we will choose. For example, he knows that tomorrow I will make the choice to attend a party, drink, drive, crash, and die. So if he knows this, there is nothing I can do to change it. I am basically his puppet.. fulfilling my destiny that had been set before me since Creation.

[christina>you]

Yes, He knows what you will choose, but again it's what you decide that makes the ultimate decision. That's where 'free will' comes in.

I see what you are trying to convey, but people tend to believe that God is unjust, evil almost. He didn't create you to become His puppet... why would He?

[joshSCH]

No, if God already knows my future then I am not actually making any decisions.. I am simply doing exactly what I am supposed to do. Like in the movie paycheck, that dude's future was already set, and he had no freewill. However, he was able to see around the curve of the Universe and view his own future. He made easy modifications, and thus changed his future. The same is true for us, if what you are saying is true. We would each have a destiny, and it would be possible to actually travel in time, b/c all our decisions would already be made. Don't you see? If God actually were omnipotent, then we would have no real choices. God would know what we would choose, and so, it would not be a choice. It would be our destiny.

Then, things like predestination come into play. If I am destined to kill you, then there is nothing I can do to change it. More to the point, if I were destined to burn in hell.. then I could do absolutely NOTHING to change that. My choices have already been made, and I am destined to reside in hell.

The Christian God would not create a system in which some of his people were destined to burn in hell... Therefore, God is not omnipotent.. and free will must exist. If God is not omnipotent, then he doesn't know everything.. and he is not the god Christians claim that he is.

[sk8ndestroy14]

Your destiny can be determined by the decisions you make. Maybe God already knows what your decisions will be and that's how he is omnipotent. Maybe people try to convert people to christianity despite a predestination because without that attempt to convert it wouldn't work, but because of that attempt, the person is converted. Without the attempt it wouldn't happen. So if that person was destined to be converted, the attempt to convert that person was necessary. The attempt itself is also predestined. So people do have choices. It's just that people believe God might already know what your choices are. They can always be influenced.

[joshSCH]

If a person was destined to be converted, then he/she will be converted. Who ever converts that person to Christianity is not going by his own free will, but by his destiny, which was set before him when God created everything.

And don't you see my final point? Why would God destine some people to burn in hell, or allow it to happen anyway?

[christina>you]

And don't you see my final point? Why would God destine some people to burn in hell, or allow it to happen anyway?

Free will.

[jbennet]

because god is a bad, bad man

[Serunson]

what makes you think he is a man, ur just assuming things. he may be a she

[jbennet]

yeah i hate the traditional god image. He was most likely black or arabic too

[Serunson]

You are probs right about that, seeing as he came from Some where which is now in an Arab state

[jbennet]

and he was jewish

[joshSCH]

lol.. there is no god you fools :)

[christina>you]

yeah i hate the traditional god image. He was most likely black or arabic too

Wait, are you speaking of God as in Jehovah or God as in Jesus?

I don't think he was black... he just had a middle eastern appearance.

[jbennet]

i meant jesus sorry

[christina>you]

Oh okay.

I agree, why did people have the misconception that Jesus had dirty blonde hair and blue eyes?

[joshSCH]

Only the Aryans thought so ;)

[Sturm]

arrogant europeans...

[christina>you]

;)

[lasher511]

Would he have acctually been of middle eastern appearance though? because he was a Jew after all given he may have had alot darker skin from the sun in that area which is only natural but i do not now about middle eastern.

[Aia]

Would he have acctually been of middle eastern appearance though? because he was a Jew after all given he may have had alot darker skin from the sun in that area which is only natural but i do not now about middle eastern.

BINGO!.
He was a Jew, therefore not reason not to look like a Jew.
Spoke at least Aramean as the common language, and of course Hebrew.

[christina>you]

Would he have acctually been of middle eastern appearance though?

That's exactly what I said.