A question about design upon "professionally" hosted websites

[stvrich]

This may, be in actuality a question about web-marketing.
But MY concern is the technical aspects of something I am only now becoming aware of. Right this moment.
And, I am not sure I am asking the question correctly, so
please forgive fundamental ignorance.
I'm trying to figure out how to approach this. (even to ask/search)

I DO know how to setup a (singular) website on a webserver, like on my own server over DSL. Also, I have helped make (very simple very few pages) websites that are hosted for individual companies whether they were on Yahoo (free) or TZO, or Go-Daddy etc... But, in the interests of keeping ---multiple--- relatively small (yet related) websites hosted on ONE commercially hosted central place... my question is regarding domain name(s) and ---what is considered to be a separate website. It's fairly open to discussion and elucidation as I don't have a tremendous amount of experience with this.

Is it possible (yes, I'm assuming but correct me if I'm wrong) to setup what would be considered "separate" websites with names based on something like:

if you assume a domain name of "Tiddlywinks"

tiddlywinks/Technical
tiddlywinks/NewAge
tiddlywinks/ComedyTshirts

With maybe the MAIN or parent "site" being TiddlywinksMarketing?
I ask this with regard to how webcrawlers work in the tracking and listing of websites.

does it matter? really?

if all these sites are hosted on something like (myfreewebserverhost.com)
or a typical paid host like Go-Daddy?

subject -of course- to whatever technical constraints of the individual site needed regarding functionality and bandwidth and storage.

As I said, I am possibly not asking the question correctly.
I'm trying to find info on what I'm asking.
and maybe it's just OBVIOUS and in my face.

thank you for any input/questions of your own.

[Airshow]

In an internet HTTP url, the first portion "http", is the protocol, followed by "://".

The next portion, up to the next "/", is the host, comprising a hostname and optional port, separated by a ":". The hostname normally comprises a combination of a local host's name with its parent domain's name (eg "www.daniweb.com"). The port number defaults to 80 and is not normally present because most sites are served on port 80.

Host effectively describes what generally we know as a "site".

The next portion, to the right of the first "/" (excluding protocol) up to the "?", if present, is the path, which is wholly internal to the site (though confusingly content can be hosted elsewhere) and most often reflects the directory structure within which the site's source files are stored. A range of mapping and redirection techniques at the host allows for alternative interpretation of the path.

The url portion to the right of the "?" up to the "#", if present, is the query string or search string. This typically contains data that is interpreted by scripts on the host (or less commonly in the browser), that control the content of templated pages. But as for path, other interpretations can be made.

The url portion to the right of the "#" is the hash string. It is used to point to a named point within a document. Most typically it is interpreted by browsers to scroll a web page to a particular place, overriding default behaviour which is to display the top of a document when it is first loaded. There is no particular reason why the hash string shouldn't be interpreted at the host to control content or presentation, for example, but this would be non-standard usage.

Airshow

[stvrich]

"protocol...host... port..." I think I follow.
the next thing
" to the right of / ... confusingly...hosted elsewhere "
may or MAY NOT be ON the hosting server- I think I follow.
"reflects directory structure... source files... mapping...redirection"
again, I believe I understand. It may NOT be on the hosting server, but merely REFERRED to by the site ON the server. And it may or may not be debated whether said "content" is a "copyright" or "property" issue. yes---

"?, #, strings... 'scripts'... 'interpretations'... host server"
yes, I see (says the blind-ish man).

scripting IS in my future. Yes.
Your reply seems to point to the possibility that a "site" may/may not extend BEYOND the host server. Likewise implying that (naturally) it COULD all be ON the server. As I said, my question may be (foolishly) "in my face".

how 'bout this?
another way for me to ask this question may be.
Is it considered a "DIFFERENT" website, --IF-- the "subdirectory" (or whatever) that the "new section" of website is based on is arbitrarily CALLED a different website? Even if the root/hostname is the same?

the ip and (root) domain name resolve to the same thing
the domain name is "HARDWARE" (at a specific ip and port)
there are 2 "websites" coming from hardware... both run by two different "masters"

one "hardware" site is "automechanics" maintained in the automechanics folder on the host server at said ip.

the other "hardware" site is "pc's and printers" maintained in the
pcsandprinters folder on the host server at same ip.

different sites? yes? no? if so, HOW? is all just the implementation of hardware and software, and definition OF the site?

is it TOO Obvious?
is it a stupid question?

how does it appear to a webcrawler?

(I'm just recently exposed to these concepts so... figuring it out)

would these be, or COULD these be considered separate?, and does it depend upon the web technology such as web scripting or file security etc... I realize it may also depend upon what the actual WebServer is also, tho fundamentally they must all provide pretty much the same rough abilities and security. (BEA, apache, IIS etc).

Sorry if this is not a good question. Not exactly SURE what I'm asking. I think I'm dancing around having multiple "sites" on one web domain name. ...Does that make sense? If it seems too unfocused I'll let it go in a bit. Promise.

it's all probably just a matter of self-definition, and WHAT TECHNOLOGY (exactly) you wish to use to implement it. (yes?)
(i.e. what your HOST, if it is not your own hardware and software, ALLOWS you to use/do... say "GoDaddy")
???
any further thoughts or general discussion of the relevant terminology or technology or problems native to "typical" professionally hosted sites along this line, is appreciated.

most of these inexpensive "godaddy" type of sites pretty good.
(considering how much you pay?)

the verbiage alone helps me to focus and sharpen the thoughts properly, understanding what is going on with the "uniform resource locator"... and CONTENT DISCOVERY, As you said, "confusingly" it may NOT even be ON the host-server... yet BE part of the website.

thank you thus far.
I'm getting it "sorted" out.

[xeolabs]

This may, be in actuality a question about web-marketing.
But MY concern is the technical aspects of something I am only now becoming aware of. Right this moment.
And, I am not sure I am asking the question correctly, so
please forgive fundamental ignorance.
I'm trying to figure out how to approach this. (even to ask/search)

I DO know how to setup a (singular) website on a webserver, like on my own server over DSL. Also, I have helped make (very simple very few pages) websites that are hosted for individual companies whether they were on Yahoo (free) or TZO, or Go-Daddy etc... But, in the interests of keeping ---multiple--- relatively small (yet related) websites hosted on ONE commercially hosted central place... my question is regarding domain name(s) and ---what is considered to be a separate website. It's fairly open to discussion and elucidation as I don't have a tremendous amount of experience with this.

Is it possible (yes, I'm assuming but correct me if I'm wrong) to setup what would be considered "separate" websites with names based on something like:

if you assume a domain name of "Tiddlywinks"

tiddlywinks/Technical
tiddlywinks/NewAge
tiddlywinks/ComedyTshirts

With maybe the MAIN or parent "site" being TiddlywinksMarketing?
I ask this with regard to how webcrawlers work in the tracking and listing of websites.

does it matter? really?

if all these sites are hosted on something like (myfreewebserverhost.com)
or a typical paid host like Go-Daddy?

subject -of course- to whatever technical constraints of the individual site needed regarding functionality and bandwidth and storage.

As I said, I am possibly not asking the question correctly.
I'm trying to find info on what I'm asking.
and maybe it's just OBVIOUS and in my face.

thank you for any input/questions of your own.

You bet, it's a standard requirement of web servers. The server software (eg Apache) can be configured to provide "virtual hosts", each corresponding to a separate (or perhaps overlapping) file system. Furthermore, if you liked, you could set up sub domains of your web address with GoDaddy etc. of the form technical.tiddlywinks, newage.tiddlywinks and have your virtual host configurations associate those with the various sites (file systems).

Your ISP would provide this as a service, but if you're interested in seeing the Apache way of doing it, go check out: http://httpd.apache.org/docs/2.2/vhosts/

[Airshow]

... and CONTENT DISCOVERY, As you said, "confusingly" it may NOT even be ON the host-server... yet BE part of the website.

When the term host was first coined, I think it was envisaged as a single computer - a server. Now, networking and serving technologies have developed so much that a host is now very often a whole "server farm" with several or even many computers sharing the load. Different aspects (eg. text, images, video) of a single web page can be served from different computers in a farm, each optimised for its particular purpose.

If I had to nail my colours to a particular computer within a farm that is the "host", then I would say it's the one (though it may be one of several sharing the load) that runs the "server application" - Apache, IIS etc.

Then, there are at least two mechnisms I can think of by which content can come from servers other than those of the host/farm associated with a particular url:

1. The host can request content via HTTP from other host(s), transform the response and re-serve it. XML and associated 'X' standards make this particularly viable (some may even say easy). RSS news "aggregators" do this every minute of every day.
2. The host can serve HTML (or XHTML, XML etc) containing urls of resources from other domains. For example an HTML <img> tag can contain a src="http://wherever.you.like.com/.....".

With either of these techniques, the host may or may not be infringing someone else's ownership rights!

Airshow

[stvrich]

Thank You for the straightforward briefing. Wow, ...you linked up concepts that I already had in my head. ...But brought it out of the shadows further. I feel like I can MOVE with a little conviction now in certain directions (which I AM slowly resolving) (as understanding slowly grows) without wasting time. Like I know what to focus on, and in what order to understand it first (QUICKLY) then with deeper understanding. ...there's still SO MUCH to (completely) understand. I hope to grasp it well enough to function quickly at a basic level. Apache... yes. goes along with my recent installation of Linux, as I said, just hope I can handle this stuff. (soon). -excited-

[stvrich]

a question on posting "points" in this forum... what NUMBERs of points are typical? for certain cases? I can't thank you enough for kindly explaining such fundamentals. If you understand what I mean, sometimes you just don't know WHAT BOOK to look at! for certain topics. And you just brought me a LONG long way.

[stvrich]

I've always said, "give me 10 percent of what I need, and I'll handle the other 90 " (even THAT may be me being gracious to myself in THIS case but... ) I do have ONE OTHER very very fundamental question if I may ask your opinion of THAT as well. ---Regarding 'bandwidth' and *sigh* yes... home based hosting. I just want your opinion on what CAN be done with DSL and or Cable. Now I am NOT saying that I want to put a SERIOUS 24/7 business on a cable modem and EXPECT true corporate type performance. But, as a heavy duty admin of websites (hoping I do become) I am assuming that my "uptime" can and will be important. And you never know. MAYBE I will end up with some serious "stuff" over either dsl or cable. I assume it all depends upon the needs of the business. And what the hardware and software can deliver. Do you happen to have any experience with the weaknesses of either medium? like, in general how MUCH can a cable modem handle. (being an EX cable tech... I DO know that that can vary upon different segments of cable, and is not etched in stone) One of the POSITIVEs of DSL is tho it is of generally lower bandwidth than cable, you usually can COUNT on that bandwidth 24/7. Your ip is also constant with DSL. A natural for a small website. Also, you are not "sharing" your link, with the rest of the community like you are with cable. these things I know. But regarding actual (probable) performance... do you KNOW how sites perform over these links... like, COULD you run a forum like DaniWeb? or no? if not, then WHAT size would you surmize... I AM purely reaching here, I can do research on my own yes,... just asking YOUR opinion -IF- you have one or WANT to give one.

And thank you for everything thus far.
very much

[Airshow]

Stvrich,

Live hosting is beyond my personal experience. I run Apache on my development computer, which serves to just two other computers (for testing purposes) across my LAN (4 port Netgear router).

There are many security and backup considerations in running a live server open to the internet and I choose to let other people take the reposnsibility. Managed hosting is so competitive that world prices seriously low.

Could you host someething like Daniweb on DSL? Simple answer - No. The bandwidth required for a high volume site like Daniweb would well exceed the capability of DSL (moreso ADSL). A fairly capable computer could handle the complexity of Daniweb but the computer and the connection would be swamped by the volume. Well, that's my considered opinion.

Will be interesting to see if anyone thinks differently. There are many many people out there better qualified in this area than I.

Airshow

[stvrich]

Hey thanks for the Candid reply. I'm actually GLAD you say you're a "developer" not on the production/support end of RUNNING the stuff. I do understand re: bandwidth and supporting something like DANI web. I do. It probably DOES run on a farm or at least a cluster (or something) WHO runs it? that's another question. ... I do kinda know how they do this, (very roughly). Yah, I know you COULD run a small biz off a dsl or cable modem, dpends upon the standards of the biz. etc. ........................THANK YOU kind sir.

I just hope I can make SOMETHING work! (soon)
(something other than an html page!)

;->