Readme - Page 2

Well the thing is that if the kiddies aren't going to search among all threads, they're not going to search among only the solved threads.

The thing I keep trying to point out is that, from a search engine optimization point of view, Google sends us the majority of all our traffic. Google sends us newbies because the existing threads are aimed towards newbies. It's a viscious cycle. If you guys start seeding the forum with interesting questions, Google will pick up on those, and send more advanced users. You don't even have to answer them yourselves. Just start posting random, interesting questions that would peak your interest, and Google will send more experts to answer them.

That's why you want to cut down on the percentage of rubbish being posted, and doing that by discouraging it from being posted in the first place is the first step.

And we're not talking about a link they can click that sends them to some knowledge base to get answers.
We're talking about some algorithm that comes up with likely related threads already in the knowledge base that they have to read through before they're allowed to have a post placed in the forums at all.

Have that active for the first 25 (for example) posts someone makes, certainly for the first say 10 threads someone starts, and it would present a serious barrier to the lazy homework solution demanding kids as they're too lazy to bother clicking through all those posts in turn (set up a timer as well so they can't just scroll immediately to the end of the page for the next link but have to wait say a minute at least on each page of KB articles they're getting).

Is it nasty? Maybe.
Is it nasty enough to have the desired effect? Possibly.

I find it interesting that someone with 300 posts and in a discussion on a "read the rules" thread hasn't read the first paragraph of this rule:

it's late thats y u are confused, give it time it will sink in, if each new user come to the site is directed to a section that show all community with solved threads we would not ahve the repitions in the forum, just like a knowledge base, for eg u go to dell to get help on a pc u select your make and model, then you sellect what category of help u want, u gettting the pic my queen,

:icon_wink:

Thank you for proving my point that there are people who can and want to participate but are ignorant of the rules or just don't know better, and that we shouldn't be so quick to extradite such people.

>Just start posting random, interesting questions that would peak
>your interest, and Google will send more experts to answer them.
That feels like make-work though. The reason you don't see advanced questions is because the advanced posters already know how to answer their own questions with research and test cases. It's kind of a cop out too. Imagine how you would feel if you were attracted to a forum by advanced questions and later discovered that they were just lures and the "real" questions were newbie problems.

I don't think "newbie" questions are the real detterrent to "advanced users." It's more of how the questions are asked (e.i if they post what they've done so far) and the spelling of the OP. Maybe if a spell censor was implemented which filtered out words/letters such as 'u', 'y','ic', etc.

> That feels like make-work though.
I guess :-/

> Imagine how you would feel if you were attracted to a forum by advanced questions and later discovered that they were just lures and the "real" questions were newbie problems.
Well the whole idea is that, in not too long after doing that, the "real" questions will be advanced.

As far as how I'd feel ... well, this is basically the way that ALL FORUMS get started: By having the owner and mods seed the forum to entice users.

> The reason you don't see advanced questions is because the advanced posters already know how to answer their own questions with research and test cases

It's not necessarily Q&A type things I'm talking about. I'm referring to the type of programming-related discussions that might be interesting to people more than the newbie coming for a quick hw questions. Discussion starters like, "Do you use AOP?"" etc.

I think I am a little confused now and I need some input from you guys. I was under the impression that the main problem is that the questions are just the same newbie questions over and over again and there's nothing stimulating going on. However, you're now telling me that forums are always going to only be newbie questions because the advanced users can typically answer their own questions, and that the main problem is the way they ask questions (ie 1337 speak and no code tags). Are you sure? There are advanced programming usenet groups so why couldn't we have discussions like there?

To Narue: Can you explain what you meant by how the old code tags were easier to copy/paste than the current ones? When in plaintext mode, you can just right click and chooe 'Select All' to eliminate the need to highlight and scroll.

I think I am a little confused now and I need some input from you guys. I was under the impression that the main problem is that the questions are just the same newbie questions over and over again and there's nothing stimulating going on.

No, not from my side. These questions will always be around. No, the problem is no one reads any of the "how to" posts. There's "the Rules", then there's the "We only give homework help to those who show effort" and "Announcement: Please use BB Code and Inlinecode tags " announcements. Then they need to read Narue's "Read Me: Read This Before Posting". And lastly, Aia's " Guide to proper code tagging using pictures". No wonder no one reads anything -- they aren't required to. It's only suggested.

Pull all the most important pieces together in a short, easy-to-read post with links for additional help, and for the first 10 posts pop up a question asking "Did you read this yet? If not, please do so before continuing". If they then posts crap, we can infract them, slap their wrists, humiliate them, depending on who gets there first. And #1, do not tell us you are a noob! We don't care!!!

However, you're now telling me that forums are always going to only be newbie questions because the advanced users can typically answer their own questions, and that the main problem is the way they ask questions (ie 1337 speak and no code tags). Are you sure? There are advanced programming usenet groups so why couldn't we have discussions like there?

Because no "advanced user" here asks them.

To Narue: Can you explain what you meant by how the old code tags were easier to copy/paste than the current ones? When in plaintext mode, you can just right click and chooe 'Select All' to eliminate the need to highlight and scroll.

First of all, for code tags a keystroke would help a whole lot. Coded for the forum or at least just CODE+/CODE

> Because no "advanced user" here asks them.
HUH??

> First of all, for code tags a keystroke would help a whole lot.
I agree, but it would be hard to code. A new version of vBulletin with a different backend to the editor is being released sometime within the next month. I'll look into it then.

I don't claim to possess a solution, but lets analyze it this way.

There has to be a reason for each and every post made, a motivation for an expert to post on the forums. Let's come up with a few of them.

Money
Yes, money. Money makes the world go round and is one of the factors which might drive some experts to take part in your forums. But I guess this trick has already been tried out with the blogging competition without any visible success. And I don't think any of the moderators / contributors here need that kind of money or do it for money. The core members contribute for the sake of Daniweb and not for some other ulterior motive (at least me). ;-)

Freedom
One of the finest examples of the best kind of forums out there is 'Google groups'. The people who render help there know the subject under consideration like the back of their hand. So what is so special about those groups? Freedom. No obligation to follow any rules. They are free to go off-topic. They are free to say 'STFU' to any poster and get away with it, no issues as such. Or maybe they are just comfortable with newsgroups. Who knows?

Another contender here is Devshed. AFAIK, Devshed has been around for longer than Daniweb, from a time when forums were not in abundance. Maybe it has got some of it's member because of that, who knows? Devshed is also quite a popular forum when it comes to Google page rankings. So why don't I see hordes of newbies like Daniweb there? Maybe it's the strict moderation staff, the community atmosphere or maybe something else. Whatever it is, I guess developers must be feeling real comfortable there to stick around even after all these years. Unless we have someone on the moderation team there, I guess we would never know. ;-)

Time
This is one factor which we can't control. If someone doesn't have time to post or help others, he wouldn't. Plain and simple. Either that or the forum must really come up with something to make up to him.

Revelations
Newbies in need of a quick fix are a real turn off, esp cocky newbies who think forums are free homework service and all the members are obliged to help them. Take for example this post. I could have kicked him off this forum for acting like this even when there are people trying to help him out, but then again...

Plus as Narue has rightly put, smart developers don't ask questions. They are pretty much self dependent when it comes to finding out solutions to their own problems. Like Narue said, we need some intellectual discussions, not forced ones, but free flowing ones. This one comes close to it. It should be something which sparks the interest of the people involved and they should feel that posting on this thread is a time worth investing. Why? I guess just because it is interesting. If I start a game development related discussion, I can be sure to get a couple of posts from Matt Evans each spanning more than 15 lines. I guess it is because that topic really touches him and makes it worth his time to reply to that thread.

Conclusion
Come to think of it, what really livens up a forum or really makes it worth visiting are not the threads which are more of a Q/A type session but more along the lines of *interesting discussions* which span across the interests of many developers. How would we put such a system in place? Well Dani, that is something which has to come out of your creative mind. :-)

Just my 2 paisa.

SOS ... I completely agree with you. But, umm, it wasn't Narue who brought up the need for intellectual free-flowing discussions, it was me in post #38.

OK, I've just flipped the magic switch which stops sending ungrateful n00bs to DaniWeb. Let's see if it works :)

>When in plaintext mode, you can just right click and chooe
>'Select All' to eliminate the need to highlight and scroll.
Plaintext mode isn't the default, and the last time I tried to select from the default, I got unexpected results when pasting. I just did a quick test and didn't see the same problem, so maybe one of your ninja updates corrected it.

That's weird. I added plaintext mode to regular code tags, but default mode hasn't changed for them.

> First of all, for code tags a keystroke would help a whole lot.
I agree, but it would be hard to code. A new version of vBulletin with a different backend to the editor is being released sometime within the next month. I'll look into it then.

Huh! for code tags a keystroke makes no sense at all. What in the world is that supposed to mean anyway. I think someone needs an English refresher with that runon sentence.
a keystroke would help a whole lot. would help what a whole lot ? It that talking about a hotkey, such as press Ctrl+A and it'll post the code tags around the code ?

Huh! for code tags a keystroke makes no sense at all. What in the world is that supposed to mean anyway. I think someone needs an English refresher with that runon sentence.
a keystroke would help a whole lot. would help what a whole lot ? It that talking about a hotkey, such as press Ctrl+A and it'll post the code tags around the code ?

Rephrase for you, AD:
I would like to see a keystroke added that would insert CODE tags (just like the CTRL codes for BOLD and ITALIC). Then we won't have to remove our hands from the keyboard just to click an icon Nor would we have to type [CO[B][/B]DE=xxx][/CODE], saving at least 15 keystrokes.

Better?

>>Better?
Absolutely. :) But I didn't know there were Ctrl+??? keystrokes for bold and italic either.

I assumed he was talking about hotkeys / accesskeys as well.

Why are you so picky?

These infractions don't crash browsers or crash the website. They are only minor annoyances.

Don't be annoyed. A noid ruins your pizza.

Huh??

:twisted:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xaD8ThKVycM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eh5-pc2U3sE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gfFPad5WjjE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jVeNr9aE8cU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZD5gMsy-nuc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2TVc4_NTluU
:icon_twisted:

No I'm just confused about which infractions are being referred to. Why am I picky? Is the post even directed at me?

Maybe not, but it was fun finding the videos! :)

lol ...

ooooook.

oooook? I haven't heard that in a looooooong time! Are you into the SF sub-culture?

I don't even know what SF subculture is.

I heard that it was something which grew towards the edges of the Petri dish ;)