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That is unless the religion happens to be science and theory which gets shoved down my kids' throats every day.

Oh, but that's different. :)

You are going to have to explain that to me - I don't know of any science that is a religion (except Scientology and that is not yet taught in schools that I know of). Can you explain how a scientific theory can be considered a religion? And what do kids throats have to do with school? Is this some sort of rant against oral vaccines?

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I just heard that someone's kid is dressing as 'Joe the Plumber' for Halloween.

Cool!

Apropos - Duluth Trading Co. sells a t-shirt they call 'crack spackle' - it is an extra 3 inches longer than other t-shirts (they are actually have a sale on their t-shirts that say "Mine is 3 inches longer" - I can't imagine wearing something like that but I live in Seattle).

Just checked - they no longer reference 'crack spackle' but now reference 'Plumber's Butt'.

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No, this has nothing to do with oral vaccines? I'm talking about my kids coming home thinking that they came from apes and apes from fish and fish from dirt. As far as I know this still remains to be a theory and yet it is still taught in schools, at the discretion of the person teaching it of course. Of course that person is usually a science teacher so which way do you think they will teach?

I don't know of any science that is a religion

That's exactly what I am talking about. Somehow that makes it OK.

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No, this has nothing to do with oral vaccines? I'm talking about my kids coming home thinking that they came from apes and apes from fish and fish from dirt. As far as I know this still remains to be a theory and yet it is still taught in schools, at the discretion of the person teaching it of course. Of course that person is usually a science teacher so which way do you think they will teach?.

I am going to ignore the highlighted thing under the assumption you are exaggerating for effect and go right to your use of the word 'theory'. Yes, it remains a theory; it will always be a theory because that is how science works. Science finds facts (ie fossils), science collects facts (even more fossils), science tries to tie the facts together into a hypothesis. With a working hypothesis, scientists decide on how to test the hypothesis (ie disprove the hypothesis) then proceed to test the hypothesis. After enough testing, the hypothesis advances to theory and there it remains. If something comes along to disprove the theory or is different enough from the predictions based on the theory, then the theory is either modified or discarded. This works for evolution, gravity, light, geology, etc.

In the case of the theory of Evolution, it has undergone numerous modifications as more information is collected. You might ask how can we test evolution - i would answer that every time a fossil is uncovered, the theory is tested. If the fossil is tested to be 500 million years old but is found in a rock layer that is tested to 100 million years old, this would be a testing of evolution. If the bones of an australopith bone were found inside the bones of a dinosaur (as if it were dinner) or if a spear point were found in the bones of dinosaur (as if it were hunted by one of our ancestors), these would disprove or test evolution. But the use of the word theory does not reflect in any way on the amount of research and knowledge that the theory of evolution is based on.

If you believe something like creationism that is different than science, it is a belief and there is no disputation for beliefs because beliefs are based on faith in the 'super'natural rather than on the natural. Yes, science is taught in schools because this will help schoolchildren exist in the world. Your beliefs you will have to teach to your children at home or in church. I don't mind going over this again or even recapitulate this thread but that thread is 1440 posts long and was started in April of 2007. I am not sure the moderators would have enough patience.

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I am not sure the moderators would have enough patience.

Hey, you started it with the separation of church and state thing, I just found something to argue about.

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Heh,heh - I would just love this conversation - let's do it until someone complains. Ground rules, no name calling or ad hominem attacks, and general DaniWeb standards apply - all else welcome.

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I have nothing against science and have a deep respect for the scientific method but am also pretty sure that I can come with as much proof for Christianity as you can Evolution because it is just a theory and therefor should also be left at home. Sure, there should be some mention of it in school so children can decide to study further into it if they choose but to give it more attention than any other theory(scientific or not) is misleading and, I think actually a form of propaganda.

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Let's start with the word 'theory' - explain to me what you mean when you say 'just a theory', that seems pretty dismissive so I am not sure how to argue with that sentiment. The reason I ask is because relativity is just a theory, gravity is just a theory.

I do not think you can offer as much proof for Christianity as I can for evolution but that is not the argument - the argument is about evolution, whether it is a science or belief.

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What makes you think your creation mythology is any better than say the Babylonian Creation Myth, except that you have the internet to spread your rumors around.

Does the fact that there's no one around who believes it make it, let's say for the want of a better word - WRONG?

What are your views on other mythic creation stories? Do you consider them interesting points of view, or do you just laugh at them? Or do you just dismiss them out of hand without even bothering to research them? Perhaps there are other non-xtians which have the same view of your mythology.

And when christianity is dead and gone (like so many belief systems before it (oh look, evolution in action), will that finally make your mythology WRONG, as opposed to (in your mind only) plausible?

Personally, I prefer things based on EVIDENCE.
The observed facts are there for all to see, for the want of looking. The "theory" is the current attempt at explaining all the observed facts. If new facts emerge which challenge the "theory", then the "theory" will change. It may change a little, or it could be a radical rethink (like Newtonian Gravity to General Relativity, which in turn will be replaced by something else). But I'm damn sure that "god-did-it" will NOT be a part of any radical change.

And when scientists are arguing over the theory of evolution, it's down in the detail (like exactly what shade of red the apple is). They're not (like you mystics) in various camps saying "It's an apple, it's a banana, it's an elephant".

And I'm pretty sure you'd want EVIDENCE as well, say if you were falsely accused of a crime. You'd be right at the front screaming "where's the EVIDENCE?" at various rumor mongers who had accused you. Nah, surely you wouldn't just accept the judgement based on what a few idiots with an imaginary friend had said (but apparently you do on this issue).

Do you accept mathematics because it's all provable (it isn't), or because there isn't some alternative loony going around saying 2+2=5 and a whole bunch of people following him because they think he's onto something.

Which is another point, are you a christian of convenience because it's a lot easier to follow all the other sheep in the neighbourhood, or would you be there right at the end with no one to listen to your "2+2=5 bleating" anymore?

If you want to go with whatever some illiterate goatherder from a couple of millenia ago came up with following an acid trip (caused by eating moldy bread say), and spending too much time in the sun listening to a singing bush, and because a whole bunch of others also think the same, then that's your problem and I'd thank you to keep it to yourself.

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Please - one of the rules of this discussion/argument is no ad hominem attacks, the other was no name calling. Please edit your content to match the rules of the game.

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What makes you think your creation mythology is any better than say the Babylonian Creation Myth, except that you have the internet to spread your rumors around.

If you are going to join the discussion, at least take the time to read what I have to say, I think it was only a paragraph. I am not saying that my mythology is any better than yours, I am saying that yours is not any better than mine.

Personally, I prefer things based on EVIDENCE.
The observed facts are there for all to see, for the want of looking. The "theory" is the current attempt at explaining all the observed facts. If new facts emerge which challenge the "theory", then the "theory" will change. It may change a little, or it could be a radical rethink (like Newtonian Gravity to General Relativity, which in turn will be replaced by something else). But I'm damn sure that "god-did-it" will NOT be a part of any radical change.

I don't see any "evidence". You show me one cat with wings(dead or alive) and I might consider it.

And when scientists are arguing over the theory of evolution, it's down in the detail (like exactly what shade of red the apple is). They're not (like you mystics) in various camps saying "It's an apple, it's a banana, it's an elephant".

Are you blind? The Christian belief is shared by more people than you may think.

Do you accept mathematics because it's all provable (it isn't), or because there isn't some alternative loony going around saying 2+2=5 and a whole bunch of people following him because they think he's onto something.

Which is another point, are you a christian of convenience because it's a lot easier to follow all the other sheep in the neighbourhood, or would you be there right at the end with no one to listen to your "2+2=5 bleating" anymore?

If you want to go with whatever some illiterate goatherder from a couple of millenia ago came up with following an acid trip (caused by eating moldy bread say), and spending too much time in the sun listening to a singing bush, and because a whole bunch of others also think the same, then that's your problem and I'd thank you to keep it to yourself.

I proposed myself in a very respectful manor and would appreciate it if you did the same. If you have a problem with people having other beliefs than yours then maybe a forum isn't the right place for you. I'm not asking you to be a Christian I am simply telling you that I also exist, have the right to do so and would appreciate it if you would not press your beliefs onto my children. That's right, I said "beliefs" since there is really little significant evidence to prove otherwise. Again, show me any evidence of a significant mid-transformation and I might reconsider. According to the theory, a species makes a change and if that change is good it sticks and if it is bad it dies. The ones that stick then breed more just like it and a transformation happens again and then that may stick or die. According to this there should be several examples of mid-transformations but yet there are not. So you my friend believe this because scientists say so. I believe what I believe because evidence has been shown to me on a personal level that I refuse to get into with you.

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Let's start with the word 'theory' - explain to me what you mean when you say 'just a theory', that seems pretty dismissive so I am not sure how to argue with that sentiment. The reason I ask is because relativity is just a theory, gravity is just a theory.

I do not think you can offer as much proof for Christianity as I can for evolution but that is not the argument - the argument is about evolution, whether it is a science or belief.

Relativity and gravity can be measured to the smallest nth degree. They have been tested time and time again and prove themselves to stand against any known phenomena so therefore are defined by specific laws that cannot be broken. On the other hand as I stated before to the previous rude gentleman, the biggest thing that I see(or don't see) is any significant evidence that this is really happening. If there were, it could be measured. We could say look, here is a lizard with wings. Oh and this one has a beak. This lizard has a different wing type. These examples would be everywhere and we would have many more types of species than we do because of the several combinations of changes that might have taken place.

We don't see this, we see several well defined species. Therefore the theory of Evolution remains just that, a theory, and the laws that define it do not explain everything that is going on. Evolution is an assumed axiom, and nothing more.

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Well, happy scary Halloween to everyone! I usually take my sister's kids to collect large amounts of candy in one of the filthy rich LA neighborhoods.

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To be honest I cannot tell you why I believe what I believe accept that certain events have happened in my life to sway me in that direction. I know that it is extremely far fetched but, until the required evidence is found, no more far fetched than Evolution

Evolution is an assumed axiom, and nothing more.

What I meant to say was an unproven assumed axiom. Why does the government consider this OK to be taught in school over any other religion, because it came from a scientific theory? How can this be a requirement in school when it has just as many holes as any other religion?

Let me ask you a question. Can you explain Evolution to someone without including the word "Believe"? I'll say not, because that is all that it is at this point is a belief.

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Scary things other than creationism:

Bloodshed - where the Red Cross keeps the plasma

Cemetary - bone zone.

Headline: "Due to strike, grave-digging at cemetary will be done by skeleton crews"

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To be honest I cannot tell you why I believe what I believe accept that certain events have happened in my life to sway me in that direction. I know that it is extremely far fetched but, until the required evidence is found, no more far fetched than Evolution


What I meant to say was an unproven assumed axiom. Why does the government consider this OK to be taught in school over any other religion, because it came from a scientific theory? How can this be a requirement in school when it has just as many holes as any other religion?

Let me ask you a question. Can you explain Evolution to someone without including the word "Believe"? I'll say not, because that is all that it is at this point is a belief.

Stop hijacking threads and start your own!

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A warning to witches everywhere, don't drink and fly!

Great picture! Drunk witches are a real problem here too!

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Stop hijacking threads and start your own!

We got permission - are you revoking our permission?

On the other hand - I have been meaning to start a thread on this topic so I think I will.

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A warning to witches everywhere, don't drink and fly!

No wonder she crashed - she was on the broom backwards.

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This is the mask I am going to wear:

Wow, Rudolph William Louis "Rudy" Giuliani! You might get more than just candies in your treat bag!

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No wonder she crashed - she was on the broom backwards.

You know in all my years I have never learned how to fly a broom properly!

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You know in all my years I have never learned how to fly a broom properly!

Heh - originally, witches were shown flying a broom with the 'head' down so that s/he could sweep tracks from the sky; later, around the 17th century, witches often rode with the head forward with a candle in it to light the way. Often, male witches flew pitchforks.

Almost all the recipes for the salve used to make the broom fly contained hallucinogenic ingredients and witches almost always flew naked - this makes such flights more reasonable.

Attachments witch_broom.jpg 7.13 KB
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I guess that the real modern witch uses an iRobot Roomba robot vacuum cleaner. I have always wanted to buy one of those automated gadgets to clean my messy house. If it flies, so better for it.

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I wants a Roomba, I needs a Roomba! (have you seen the hacks? One guy added bluetooth controls, then mounted an Airsoft Gun and Laser Sight - cats really, really fear this 'toy'.

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