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Last Post by GrimJack
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  • 1
    Narue 5,707   8 Years Ago

    >Can I tell now that my friend exists? I think a more interesting question is how many people will question your sanity if you have a friend that you aren't sure exists? :) Read More

  • 3

    One of the main problems with '[URL="http://xkcd.com/171/"]string theory[/URL]' <<I think xkcd is the best {mumble,muble} comic on the internets>>is that it has not produced one single prediction that can be tested by experiment. One of the main components of scientific investigation is that it be falsifiable - that it make … Read More

0

1) Define a "thing"
2) Define "emit"
3) Define "vibration"

Prove:
* Show that all known things emit vibration.

Disprove:
* Display one case of a thing that does not emit vibration.

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Does the *thing* have to be the source of the emitted vibration? I mean... any object could emit vibration if you consider reflected light as being emitted vibration.

And a Dr. Pepper can will emit vibration if you squeeze it. The crinkling aluminum produces the vibration of sound waves.

1

And a Dr. Pepper can will emit vibration if you squeeze it. The crinkling aluminum produces the vibration of sound waves.

My wife does that too :)

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A complete show of lack of class.
Long time ago I had such a laugh!
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Well, how sensitive do we have to be to the vibration. Protons and Electrons are in motion in atoms. Would there not be some molecular vibration on anything made of this matter?

0

My wife does that too :)

Your wife is made of aluminum? You married a cheaply-constructed robot?!?!

Of course I jest.. I know what you meant

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All things emit vibrations so they exist.(e.g. in the form of heat)
So I'm entering a pub, lots of people, going to meet a friend to have a drink. I look around and I see my friend is not there yet. Can I tell now that my friend exists?

1

>Can I tell now that my friend exists?
I think a more interesting question is how many people will question your sanity if you have a friend that you aren't sure exists? :)

Votes + Comments
A better funny statement and with more class, than rediculing wifes.
0

just because i have no comment on this matter, shouldn't stop me from commenting.

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you're pretty horrible, but surely you are better...
you are not better than me
Any kind of attention as long as it's attention, eh?
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Assumptions:
vibrations, matter, particles
Definitions:
Zero Kelvin is defined as the state in which all particle motion ceases and entropy is zero/infinite

All vibration ceases at Zero Kelvin;
All 'things' are made of matter;
All matter is made up of particles that vibrate;
therefore
All 'things' that do not vibrate
either
Do not exist
or
exist at Zero Kelvin.

0

Assumptions:
vibrations, matter, particles
Definitions:
Zero Kelvin is defined as the state in which all particle motion ceases and entropy is zero/infinite

All vibration ceases at Zero Kelvin;
All 'things' are made of matter;
All matter is made up of particles that vibrate;
therefore
All 'things' that do not vibrate
either
Do not exist
or
exist at Zero Kelvin.

Great , so can we say universe cease to exist when it stops vibrating and when it starts vibrating again it comes into existence ?

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Great , so can we say universe cease to exist when it stops vibrating and when it starts vibrating again it comes into existence ?

The answer lies in the question.
Consider vibration to be pendulum-like and the universe disappears at the apogee of each arc for that moment when acceleration is infinite (or undefined - you decide) and velocity is zero.
Consider string theory in which particles are composed of 'strings' that have only 2 dimensions (and yet create a universe of 11 dimensions) and vibrate all the time.
Consider the universe as a particle that is pendulum-like in a higher dimension and what we see as the big-bang followed by the big-compression as just a tic/toc in the time of a meta-universe.

Consider absolute zero (again - back to this because it is so much fun) - we can't get there from here but we can get to 200 degs K and at that point we suddenly see Bose-Einstein condensate. The particles have slowed down to about half a mile per hour (from 1100 mph at room temp) they become superfluids that have little or no friction but still have surface tension which could lead to liquids that when left in a bowl will flow up the sides and out; but the real use of a BEC is coherence but the fun thing about BEC is quantum de-coherence (sometimes called the quantum Zeno effect after the Zeno paradoxes) in which you have slowed the system down so much that you can take measurements (ie "watch") the system so much that you can prevent changes in the quantum system (sometimes called suppression of unitary time evolution). If you can prevent Zeno's Arrow from moving, you can prevent changes in the system and, er, save Schroedinger's Cat.

but I digress - (attached: Schroedinger's lolcat and a mathematical model of a coherent atom)

Attachments 522563155_73757af6e4.jpg 134.21 KB atom-06.jpg 9.44 KB
0

All vibration ceases at Zero Kelvin;
All 'things' are made of matter;
All matter is made up of particles that vibrate;
therefore
All 'things' that do not vibrate
either
Do not exist
or
exist at Zero Kelvin.

Wrong!!. You are only considering classical phenomena but quantum mechanics has more to say. At absolute zero kelvin, the motion does not ceases and the maximum velocity of a electron corresponds to the kinetic energy equal to the Fermi Energy.
To quote from the link:

even if we have extracted all possible energy from a metal by cooling it down to near absolute zero temperature (0 kelvins), the electrons in the metal are still moving around; the fastest ones would be moving at a velocity that corresponds to a kinetic energy equal to the Fermi energy. This is the Fermi velocity.

Even the entropy is not zero for non perfectly-crystalline/ solids at zero kelvin. This is called Residual Entropy. Ice, for example has a residual entropy of 3.4J/K/mol.

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Wrong!!. You are only considering classical phenomena but quantum mechanics has more to say. At absolute zero kelvin, the motion does not ceases and the maximum velocity of a electron corresponds to the kinetic energy equal to the Fermi Energy.
To quote from the link:

Even the entropy is not zero for non perfectly-crystalline/ solids at zero kelvin. This is called Residual Entropy. Ice, for example has a residual entropy of 3.4J/K/mol.

Did you not read the first 4 lines?

Assumptions:
vibrations, matter, particles
Definitions:
Zero Kelvin is defined as the state in which all particle motion ceases and entropy is zero/infinite

Actually, I had not even heard of Fermi Energy - thanks for the links!

I especially like the part about "...frustration... may lead to highly degenerate ground states with a nonzero entropy at zero temperature. This implies that if we were to send the crystal lattice to a 'massage parlor' it would end up with zero entropy at zero temperature.

WRT your avatar.

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My explanation is perfectly valid for perfect particles and even real particles.
You have defined zero kelvin as the temperature at which all the motion ceases. But actually, this very definition is not correct as viewed by the spectacles of quantum mechanics.
>This implies that if we were to send the crystal lattice to a 'massage parlor' it
>would end up with zero entropy at zero temperature.
Not likely, the Residual Entropy is the consequence of the basic arrangement of poly-atomic molecules. That mean, that even if you send your latice to a perfection parlor, they would still have residual entropy left.(Until and unless they are broken into individual atoms).

>WRT your avatar.
Didn't got this one? My avatar is the Glider, emblem of Hackerdom as suggested by Eric S. Raymond.
Yes, it is taken from Game of Life

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Hi. You are certainly correct in saying that even at 0 K a quantum system still contains energy. However, a quantum system in it`s ground state cannot emit any energy because the ground state is defined as the lowest possible energy state of the system. All it can do is wait around to see if it is able to absorb some energy. The emission of photons can be considered the emission of vibrations in the electromagnetic field. Here we have a system that does not emit vibrations of this kind and, as far as I know, could not emit vibrations of any kind. I warrant that the original point has been disproven.

Steven.

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>Here we have a system that does not emit vibrations of this kind and, as far as
>I know, could not emit vibrations of any kind.
Don't try to go to the classical model again. That is, if a (charged) particle is not emitting any radiations, it is not vibrating. This assertion is not valid in quantum mechanics (say, if this was true, there would be no atoms since they are vibrating but doesn't give out radiation in stable state).
I fully agree that the system at zero kelvin cannot give out any EM radiations(or any other way in which its energy decreases). But that doesn't implies that it would not be vibrating!
So I can infer is:
1. All particle will vibrate (at least move),
2. Even at zero kelvin.

3

One of the main problems with 'string theory' <<I think xkcd is the best {mumble,muble} comic on the internets>>is that it has not produced one single prediction that can be tested by experiment. One of the main components of scientific investigation is that it be falsifiable - that it make a prediction that can be tested and proved or disproved. The theory is quite pretty and I really like all the pretty graphics that people have come up with to explain what the theory is but... unless it can actually predict something (as opposed to explaining things we already know) it could become a dead end. Then all those 'string theorists' who have spent the last 20 years working with the theory could just be relegated to the dust bin of history along with 'phlogistan'.

Votes + Comments
"It was a work of art. Flawless. Sublime. A triumph only equaled by its monumental failure. "
being a chemical orientd person I enjoyed this very much
Said the same thing that I would have
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If a thing does not emit vibration of any form , the thing does not exist .

QUESTION: Is this a riddle to which you already have an answer
in mind, or are you querying us for a clue?

0

My wife does that too :)

It is known that by the mouth dies the fish when it opens it to bite the hook.

I say your mouth is your downfall. With such comments, you show everyone you don't have class; ...ridiculing your spouse for the sake of a cheap laugh.

And I don't have trouble telling you in a way you can defend yourself if you choose so.

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It is known that by the mouth dies the fish when it opens it to bite the hook.

I say your mouth is your downfall. With such comments, you show everyone you don't have class; ...ridiculing your spouse for the sake of a cheap laugh.

And I don't have trouble telling you in a way you can defend yourself if you choose so.

Now I shall ask everyone. Would you rather behave like this and not only come off as rude and bitter, but expose the general public to apparent issues that they have absolutely no interest in, or just leave your entirely worthless opinion of someone through a semi-private medium and let everyone else get on with their lives?

0

Now I shall ask everyone. Would you rather behave like this and not only come off as rude and bitter, but expose the general public to apparent issues that they have absolutely no interest in, or just leave your entirely worthless opinion of someone through a semi-private medium and let everyone else get on with their lives?

Why don't you ask the question to yourself first? Specially the part about worthless opinion.

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Why don't you ask the question to yourself first? Specially the part about worthless opinion.

I hate to be the one to break it to you, but your opinion of AncientDragon's class is entirely worthless. It is grounded on nothing substantial and serves no other purpose than to stir up confrontation (which I admit I may have taken the bait on). It does not in any way validate/invalidate the quality of his character.

And honestly, do you really think that anybody following this thread gives an honest damn about what you think of his class? You really are cute.

As to your remarks about asking myself the same question, I already did. That's the very point. Isn't it abundantly clear to you by now that I prefer the latter option? Cute and thick.

0

In order to mitigate the unintended wrong doing toward the intention of the Original Poster, I offer this explanation link and my public apologies to ithelp if my personal email was not enough.

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first try vibrating the *thing* externally . shud you get back any reflections, then yes, the thing exists, otherwise not...

the case of a black hole... mmm... i don't know..

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first try vibrating the *thing* externally . shud you get back any reflections, then yes, the thing exists, otherwise not...

the case of a black hole... mmm... i don't know..

The only way we know that black holes exist is that they vibrate the things around them - matter 'falling' into BHs produce X-rays at the event horizon, BHs can behave as a 'gravity lens' focusing objects behind them, BHs produce gravity ripples in space-time when interacting with objects => neutron stars.

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