Evolution: Science vs. Religion - Page 2

[Catweazle]

Dude, much of that is wrong on so many levels that it boggles the mind!

Your inital comment is a thinly disguised expression of intolerance to any religion other than your own.

Your comments about Communism portray a lack of understanding about what Communism is.

Your final comment portrays a lack of understanding of the nature of science and its relationship and confinement to the physical universe.

But let me just debunk that nonsense about Communism and Marx.

There is no such thing as a communist nation and there never has been. Communism exists only in theory, and the principles upon which it is based pretty much 'mirror' the teachings and philosophy of Christ. The nations referred to as 'communist' are really Socialist nations.

Communism doesn't teach that religion should be cast aside. Onlt politicians who have called themselves Communists have taught that, in much the same way as politicians who call themselves 'Christians' teach hatred, intolerance and greed. Karl Marx never said the religion was 'the root of evil', he described religion as 'the opiate of the masses'. He was condemning the way religion is used as an excuse to keep people ignorant of their condition in this world! Communism and faith can go hand in hand - they are not mutually exclusive.

Science and religion can go hand in hand also, becuase they too are not mutually exclusive.

JESUS CHRIST
(Woody Guthrie)

Jesus Christ was a man who traveled through the land
Hard working man and brave
He said to the rich, "Give your goods to the poor."
So they laid Jesus Christ in his grave.

Jesus was a man, a carpenter by hand
His followers true and brave
One dirty little coward called Judas Iscariot
Has laid Jesus Christ in his grave

He went to the sick, he went to the poor,
And he went to the hungry and the lame;
Said that the poor would one day win this world,
And so they laid Jesus Christ in his grave.

He went to the preacher, he went to the sheriff,
Told them all the same;
Sell all of your jewelry and give it to the Poor,
But they laid Jesus Christ in his grave.

When Jesus came to town, the working folks around,
Believed what he did say;
The bankers and the preachers they nailed him on a cross,
And they laid Jesus Christ in his grave.

Poor working people, they follered him around,
Sung and shouted gay;
Cops and the soldiers, they nailed him in the air,
And they nailed Jesus Christ in his grave.

Well the people held their breath when they heard about his death,
And everybody wondered why;
It was the landlord and the soldiers that he hired.
That nailed Jesus Christ in the sky.

When the love of the poor shall one day turn to hate.
When the patience of the workers gives away
"Would be better for you rich if you never had been born"
So they laid Jesus Christ in his grave.

This song was written in New York City
Of rich men, preachers and slaves
Yes, if Jesus was to preach like he preached in Galillee,
They would lay Jesus Christ in his grave.

[server_crash]

Dude, much of that is wrong on so many levels that it boggles the mind!

Do you read much, or do you sit around and think these little crappy poems you dig up give you knowledge for everything? Have you read Carl Marx' "Comunist Manifesto"?

[server_crash]

There is no such thing as a communist nation and there never has been. Communism exists only in theory, and the principles upon which it is based pretty much 'mirror' the teachings and philosophy of Christ. The nations referred to as 'communist' are really Socialist nations.

:cheesy: List of commnist nations:

China
North Korea
Vietnam
Cuba

And you said I was speaking nonsense? Maybe they don't teach you much in that desert wasteland?

[server_crash]

Karl Marx never said the religion was 'the root of evil', he described religion as 'the opiate of the masses'. He was condemning the way religion is used as an excuse to keep people ignorant of their condition in this world!

I said it was something along that line, not exactly. He said that religion should be done away with all together(I know since I have read the book..Have you?)

You said: "He was condemning the way religion is used as an excuse to keep people ignorant of their condition in this world!"

Now, that comment is a thinly disguised expression of intolerance to other peoples beliefs.

Again, I just have to say that I love how you pull out these little dinky poems to TRY to prove your point. You've done nothing of the such.

[server_crash]

There is no such thing as a communist nation and there never has been. Communism exists only in theory, and the principles upon which it is based pretty much 'mirror' the teachings and philosophy of Christ. The nations referred to as 'communist' are really Socialist nations.

Communism doesn't teach that religion should be cast aside. Onlt politicians who have called themselves Communists have taught that, in much the same way as politicians who call themselves 'Christians' teach hatred, intolerance and greed.

Communist exists only in theory? Are the nations that follow these so called non existent teachings thoery? Last time I checked, China and those other nations were real.

[Catweazle]

I've read and studied, 'Communist manifesto' and all three volumes of 'Das Kapital'. Matter of fact I have a sub-major in Political history and many years of taking a great interest in the world around me.

I've also read and thoroughly studied over the years all the great works of the World's major religions. I don't like spouting opinion on such matters unless I've read and understood what I'm talking about.

And the 'crappy little poem' is one of the greatest songs of the greatest of all American folk singers! Woody Guthrie was a true minstrel in every sense of the word, and one of the 'fathers' of contemporary music!

[server_crash]

And the 'crappy little poem' is one of the greatest songs of the greatest of all American folk singers! Woody Guthrie was a true minstrel in every sense of the word, and one of the 'fathers' of contemporary music!

Were is the relevance?

[Catweazle]

The nations you list might proclaim themselves to be communist but they are in reality socialist nations. Marx, for all his failings, taught of stages in the progression to communism, and he got that bit right ;) It's just communism itself that can't be achieved.

But this is all straying from the topic, you're getting all heated and upset, and I'm not interested in 'proving a point'.

And the relevence of the 'crappy little poem' lies in the insight and understanding contained in its words :D

[server_crash]

I've read and studied, 'Communist manifesto' and all three volumes of 'Das Kapital'.

I respect anyone that can read half a volume of Das Kapital. Altough someone with such knowledge should question others, rather than telling them what they said is completely wrong.

[server_crash]

But this is all straying from the topic, you're getting all heated and upset, and I'm not interested in 'proving a point'.

How do you expect someone to reply to another person that commented and said everything you posted is completely wrong? I'm just letting you know were I came from. Don't you want an explanation?

[server_crash]

The nations you list might proclaim themselves to be communist but they are in reality socialist nations. Marx, for all his failings, taught of stages in the progression to communism, and he got that bit right ;) It's just communism itself that can't be achieved.

I think

Communist natios are classified, in a sense, as socialogical. What you said about them progressing is correct. None of those nations are fully communist, but are still considered to be communist...At least by most!

I found this site that gives the percentage each of those are toward communist, although I can't say how much is true.
http://www.adherents.com/largecom/com_communist.html

[Real-tiner]

When Jesus came to town, the working folks around,
Believed what he did say;
The bankers and the preachers they nailed him on a cross,
And they laid Jesus Christ in his grave.

Poor working people, they follered him around,
Sung and shouted gay;
Cops and the soldiers, they nailed him in the air,
And they nailed Jesus Christ in his grave.

Well the people held their breath when they heard about his death,
And everybody wondered why;
It was the landlord and the soldiers that he hired.
That nailed Jesus Christ in the sky.

When the love of the poor shall one day turn to hate.
When the patience of the workers gives away
"Would be better for you rich if you never had been born"
So they laid Jesus Christ in his grave.

This song was written in New York City
Of rich men, preachers and slaves
Yes, if Jesus was to preach like he preached in Galillee,
They would lay Jesus Christ in his grave.

It's obvious that Woody Guthrie didn't understand Christianity at all.

[Real-tiner]

:cheesy: List of commnist nations:

China
North Korea
Vietnam
Cuba

And you said I was speaking nonsense? Maybe they don't teach you much in that desert wasteland?

They said they were communist, but they are in fact socialist. In true communism, there's no government control.

[Real-tiner]

On the Galileo controversy, there is one little fact which explains everything:

We STILL say that the sun is rising or setting, even though we know the earth is doing the moving to cause this. They even use Copernincan science to calculate the sunrise and sunset times they publish in the papers.

So even if Joshua had known about the rotating earth, would he stilll have said the sun stopped moving? I think we would.

[Toulinwoek]

religion not suppressing science?
Tell that to Galileo...
Other scientists have been killed as heretics for daring to proclaim things that didn't fit in the framework of the ruling religion.
Religious groups in the US and elsewhere want to ban evolution theory from being taught in schools as heretical.

There have probably been at least as many Christians killed by unbelievers as there have been unbelievers killed by those purporting themselves to be Christians (kind of an oxymoron, because a Christian shouldn't be killing anyone, unless they have corrupted their interpretation of the Bible). The animosity between the believers and the unbelievers is rather inane and would be completely senseless, but for one thing: It was prophesied.

[server_crash]

Is it really possible to tell wether the sun revolves around the earth, or the earth around the sun? I never knew this fact about the earth being portrayed as the center of the universe. Kind of a cool fact.

Since WW1, some nations have split off and some called themselves communist, and some socialist. In some sense, I guess you could say there is no communist nation, which is logical, but socialism is considered to be the stage between capitilism and the communist goal...This is were you find dictators and such. Like I said earlier, there is NO nation that is TOTALY communist, only a percentage.

[gortonsfi]

religion not suppressing science?
Tell that to Galileo...
Other scientists have been killed as heretics for daring to proclaim things that didn't fit in the framework of the ruling religion.
Religious groups in the US and elsewhere want to ban evolution theory from being taught in schools as heretical.

Bah! People are just really good at killing other people. Whether you're a Jew, Christian, Muslim, black, hispanic, asian, >insert more social groups< your group has at some time been killed for being outside the popular opinion.

As for the evolution theory being banned...It's a theory, and it has about as much proof as Intelligent Design. Instead of worrying about our kids not knowing what the Beagle was, let's get them learning about our country, give them a working knowledge of the Constitution so they'll be able to take the reins without having to look to the UN or the EU for instructions.

[Asif_NSU]

As for the evolution theory being banned...It's a theory, and it has about as much proof as Intelligent Design.

The word "theory" in normal usage means a guess or a hunch. But in science, a "theory" is a belief that has been verified by actual experimentation and/or observation. A guess or an attempt to explain a fact is called a hypothesis in science. Only 5% of the scientists don't believe in evolution, among earth and life scientists the percentage is 0.15%. I dont understand why evolution should not be in the science books.

Intelligent Design theory simply put is not science at all. It uses science's "inability to explain everything" as a tool to prove its point. It should be in philosophy books, but not in science books.

Science studies facts and then draws conclusion, while in Intelligent Design thoery they have already made conclusion and then tries to find facts to support their claim. Totally opposite the way science works.

Well, it might stagger you(after everything I said in favour of evolution) that I personally believe in Intelligent Design theory, and I am skeptic about evolution. But hey that's just me.

[Catweazle]

A religious group which seeks to not have things like evolution as allowable content in education is an extremist group. Fine if the members of such groups wan to have such content removed from the educational process for their own children. Do that if you want. But expect to have to maintain your own private school system for your children. Don't expect to have your extremist views foisted upon the mainstream education system because, after all, they ARE extremist views. Current opinion amongst the vast majority of Theological and Scientific circles holds that Evolution and Creation do not necessarily contradict each other.

No good holding strictly to the depiction of the process of creation as depicted in the Bible i'm afraid. In fact the Word as expressed in the Bible cannot really be taken as a literal exposition of 'God's Word' at all. Taken in its entirety, the Bible is so contradictory as to be effectively meaningless in terms of human comprehension.

Let's just take Creation as the Act, and Evolution as our best effort to explain the process shall we? That's the best combination of explanation available to us if we're to hold belief in an 'Almighty God'.

[gortonsfi]

That's kind of the point; I look at evolution as a giant guess in the sense that no scientist has ever observed one species evolve into another. We've seen examples of micro-evolution; certain traits being preferred over others due to environmental changes, but only within the confines of a species.

Now, it's been a long time since I studied my sciences, but doesn't the scientific method require that you first make a hypothesis and test it before forming a theory?

In evolution's case it uses a set of correlation's from which it derives an unsubstantiated truth. If its truth lacks proof doesn't it have to be held on faith?

[JJ___]

Is it me, or has this topic exploded?

[Toulinwoek]

The word "theory" in normal usage means a guess or a hunch. But in science, a "theory" is a belief that has been verified by actual experimentation and/or observation. A guess or an attempt to explain a fact is called a hypothesis in science. Only 5% of the scientists don't believe in evolution, among earth and life scientists the percentage is 0.15%. I dont understand why evolution should not be in the science books.

I'm afraid your definition of "theory" is not correct. The word can't take on a different meaning just because a scientist uses it. The definition of the word has to do with conjecture, or an assumption based on limited knowledge. Anything that has been verified is no longer a theory; it is a fact! You could also say that a theory is statements devised to explain some phonomena that have been tested extensively and can be used to make predictions about something that hasn't (or can't) be empirically observed or proven. The simplest explanation is to just call a theory an educated guess. That doesn't automatically make it a wrong or foolhardy guess, though.
Regardless what scientists "believe" (belief is a personal thing, and means accepting something as true, without evidence), the bulk of science is still theory. As humans, we all tend to believe whatever we want to believe, until we are faced with an undeniable truth. Some of us become so comfortable in our beliefs that we refuse to seek that undeniable truth. Of course, there are going to be some things that can probably never be proven or disproven, and among these (in my opinion) is God. Some might refuse to accept that there is a God, but that doesn't prove anything except that the person just doesn't want to believe. A person can be persuaded by words or logic to believe or not believe anything if no actual proof is presented one way or the other, but this isn't truth either.
The Bible, by the way, indicates that man cannot figure out God intellectually, that it is impossible. So far, looks like that concept has proven itself out.

[gortonsfi]

Is it me, or has this topic exploded?

seems like harmless fun to me. I know my pitchfork and torch are still in the shed, how about the rest of you guys?

[gortonsfi]

A religious group which seeks to not have things like evolution as allowable content in education is an extremist group.

I'm not sure I understood why you believe they must be extremist.

In fact the Word as expressed in the Bible cannot really be taken as a literal exposition of 'God's Word' at all. Taken in its entirety, the Bible is so contradictory as to be effectively meaningless in terms of human comprehension.

hehehehe, you tripped me up on that one. I had to read it a couple times to makes sure I didn't misinterpret what you were saying. It almost sounds like you're saying that a revelation from God is required to interpret the Bible, which strikes me as humorous. Also, I'm not familiar with the contradictions you mention, could you list a few please?

[JJ___]

seems like harmless fun to me. I know my pitchfork and torch are still in the shed, how about the rest of you guys?

Yeah, why not. It's been awhilez since my last mob. Count me in!

[jwenting]

Scientists call evolution theory a theory only because there has been no incontrovertible proof that no other systems are possible.
That's not the same as there being no evidence that evolution happens.

Creationists flatly deny evolution (at least many of them, there appear to be some who take the view that something created a starting point from scratch and that evolution took care of the rest from there on).

According to the bible the earth is only a few thousand years old (can't remember where I found the references to that, someone calculated the exact age at something like 4000 years based on biblical references) and came into existence fully formed (God created the heavens and the earth... etc.) with all the current species (and a few that have since gone extinct like the dodo and thylacine).
There is no explanation at all for things like dinosaur bones (except some people jokingly stating that god put them there to keep the archeologists busy thinking in the wrong direction).

[Asif_NSU]

I'm afraid your definition of "theory" is not correct. The word can't take on a different meaning just because a scientist uses it. The definition of the word has to do with conjecture, or an assumption based on limited knowledge. Anything that has been verified is no longer a theory; it is a fact! You could also say that a theory is statements devised to explain some phonomena that have been tested extensively and can be used to make predictions about something that hasn't (or can't) be empirically observed or proven. The simplest explanation is to just call a theory an educated guess. That doesn't automatically make it a wrong or foolhardy guess, though.

I am afraid science has its own vocabulary. Work in normal usage is not the same as "work" in physics. And the definition of "theory" that I have given you is not my definition, it's the definition given by science itself. I am sure you know that a conjecture or an assumption is termed "hypothesis" in science. A "theory", however, is something that started off as a hypothesis but ended up being a "theory" because of the amount of evidence that supported it. A theory is a verified "hypothesis". You said, "Anything that has been verified is no longer a theory; it is a fact!"
Scientists really don't see any difference between a theory and a scientific fact. The term "theory" in science encompasses "facts, laws and verified hypothesis". Evolution is not "just a theory"(here theory in general sense), but it is indeed a scientific fact. I have seen most people(not familiar with the terms of science) argue against evolution like this:
"Hey, it's just a theory, not a scientific fact."
They just need to know the difference between "theory" in general sense and "theory" in scientfic sense. Actually this "xx is a theory not a scientific fact" is said by people who doesnt even understand science. You wont see a scientist ask this question, because he knows what a "theory" means in science. If a scientist says,"xx is a theory"-- it means it is also a scientfic fact( scientfic facts are not absolute truth).
However, what you can say is that a theory is not entirely infallible. Much like a guesswork it can also be proven wrong. This is why many people say theory and guesswork are all the same, but they miss the important distinction between the two. Theories have been disproved many times in the history of science. When a theory fails it is no more a "scientific theory". It is the very nature of science --- always open to changes and correction. Even if someone says this xx is a scientific fact, doesnt make it an "absolute truth".

[Asif_NSU]

A religious group which seeks to not have things like evolution as allowable content in education is an extremist group. Fine if the members of such groups wan to have such content removed from the educational process for their own children. Do that if you want. But expect to have to maintain your own private school system for your children. Don't expect to have your extremist views foisted upon the mainstream education system because, after all, they ARE extremist views. Current opinion amongst the vast majority of Theological and Scientific circles holds that Evolution and Creation do not necessarily contradict each other.

No good holding strictly to the depiction of the process of creation as depicted in the Bible i'm afraid. In fact the Word as expressed in the Bible cannot really be taken as a literal exposition of 'God's Word' at all. Taken in its entirety, the Bible is so contradictory as to be effectively meaningless in terms of human comprehension.

Let's just take Creation as the Act, and Evolution as our best effort to explain the process shall we? That's the best combination of explanation available to us if we're to hold belief in an 'Almighty God'.

HOW TRUE!!!! :D

[Catweazle]

Why thank you! I was pondering whether or not to answer the queries about those comments, but decided that they really contain enough explanation 'as is'.

For the record, I do not personally hold belief in 'Almighty God', as I personally reject all organised religions as any form of absolute truth. I'm happy to live this life without knowing or pondering what lies around, above or beyond it in any spiritual sense. I believe absolutely that Good and Evil exist, and am happy to learn from all the major works of religion and philosophy in order to help me follow the path of 'good'. I believe that only I can make the choices which will keep me on that path.

Should the concept of 'immortal soul' eventually prove to be a truism, I hold no fear that it will be under threat due to the fact that I have not adhered to some prescribed ritual during the course of my life.

And I am firmly convinced that evolution is one of the wonders of creation, just as I am firmly convinced that creation itself lies outside the realm of our ability to comprehend.

[Asif_NSU]

For the record, I do not personally hold belief in 'Almighty God'

It always disappoints me when I see people who dont believe in "Almighty God" :sad: . It's probably a prejudice ingrained into me, but it always strikes me. I cant help it.
I believe in "the Almighty God", I fear Him as much as I love Him. In despair I look upto Him, I believe in the Last day, I believe in a life hereafter, I try to remain in the path of "good" because I believe I have answer to Him in the Judgement day and there will be an eternal life after that. I probably cant prove it, but it makes me feel secure even when I am not getting what I want from my life (Hey there's another life after this life :cheesy: ).