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@ rustybear but anyone qualified can answer.

let me say to you that i have nothing against homosexuals or lesbians. i firmly believe that each and every human has not only the right but also the duty to live his live his own way.

but here is something which has always puzzled me. you are a catholic. unless you want to say what so many christians told me, that the old testament is null and void because of Jesus Christ, i must ask you how you are going to explain yourself to your God oneday.

now dont get me wrong. i am not against homosexuals. as you can see above i have explained it in scientific terms which absolves the homosexuals. i even went so far as to say that God is wrong to judge people for a design flaw which he apparently caused.

but just out of curiosity. i used to be a christian myself and we both know that he is a very strict patriach. how are you going to explain yourself to him?

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@ rustybear but anyone qualified can answer.

Wow if there's anyone that can predict the future based on indoctrinated faith, I wanna meet them :)

as you can see above i have explained it in scientific terms which absolves the homosexuals

Jeepers quintoncoert! maybe not your intention, but to me this comes across as *hugely* presumptious. :icon_eek:

God is wrong to judge people for a design flaw which he apparently caused

Boy you don't 'Sit on the fence' do you! :icon_biggrin:

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First of all why do you assume I'm catholic? and secondly if I were a catholic then I would know I had been created in his image there for he would either love me as he had created me or he would hate himself as I had been created in his image.
Fortunately my life is not that dull that I feel the urge to try and explainer anything at all to "the ALMIGHTY, ALL KNOWING, and ALL SEEING". I'm pretty bright but not that egotistical!

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>but just out of curiosity. i used to be a christian myself and we both know that he is a very strict patriach. how are you going to explain yourself to him?

Lets assume a god does exist. And lets assume this god is intelligent. In fact lets assume I am this god. Would I personally respect an individual who was cowed, by fear and hatred directed at him by society, into doing or not doing something as the case may be? Or would I respect an individual who, despite the fear, hatred, and bigotry, had the courage to stand up and defy society?

I respect people who are different probably the most. Because if your different than chances are your better than most people.

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by the way I am not a Catholic or for that matter a Cristian. perhaps you are in need of some people skills?

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First of all why do you assume I'm catholic?

I think quintoncoert saw your post about being in a Catholic school with nuns.

It's fairly obvious from the posts here it doesn't take much evidence for quintoncoert to extrapolate facts.

I think he (assumption on my part now) is genuinely curious, just not very good at putting that across in his writing.

I have to say, I'm finding this extremely entertaining!

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if we were all the same then evolution would have never happened. And you my friend would have allot more company over there in the shallow end of the gene pool

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I have to say, I'm finding this extremely entertaining!
Puts a whole new spin on the old saying "ignorance is bliss" don't it?

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Puts a whole new spin on the old saying "ignorance is bliss" don't it?

Sure does. He he.

I respect people who are different probably the most. Because if your different than chances are your better than most people.

Well everyone's different. Being different makes you better depending on what the goal is. All you'r really saying is: "Sturm's a nice guy who doesn't like to judge people."

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if we were all the same then evolution would have never happened.

Difference *is* evolution. One wasn't caused by the other.

I know. I'm getting pickty on the grammer now, but it's fun.

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what the heck are we doing at this hour we could be washing our hair or anything else for that matter I think I'll go play word jong or something

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Well, Holly get off Daniweb :P ;)

ok, here goes..

@ A.D.:
agreed... perhaps we may want to consider experimentation as the best explanation... experimentation just to see what it feels like to do things different, and end liking it... but then, if it was experimentation, it was chioce... choice to keep doing it, or just stopping it...

Unless it evolved into instinct, as someone said, gay people can have kids via heterosexual marriages. My ex-uncle had 2 kids with my auntie, then left her for a bloke.

Yes. Hate begets abuse, such as spousal and child abuse, burning crosses on laws, burning churches, dragging people behind cars, etc. Hate has no place in our society and under some circumstance there are laws against it.

I hate potatoes. I would willingly do that to the evil bastids..... thought comedy might go down well..

if we are to follow your train of"logic" then as every one knows lesbians(also homosexuals by the way ) have the lowest occourance of HIV & AIDS of any population, therefore they must be the CHOSEN ONES

Waho! wait, I'm not a lesbian.... damnit! let's decide to turn that way, then I'll be the CHOSEN ONE.

More comedy, I'm on fire tonight!

I find my self outraged that a thread like this ever began in such an "ENLIGHTENED" community. In the last few posts I have read things aperently writtin by educated individules who have some how reverted to a pre 1969 mentality , 1969 being the year the AMA or who ever it was decided that homosexuality was not a perversion nor a deviant sexual behaviour but a behaviour found in every species on the planet. they no longer treat the symptoms of homosexuality ,unfourtunatly many homosexuals do seek treatment due to depression and self loathing brought about by the closed minded bigotry we are awash in from the day we are born!
I am 47 years old and I have known bigotry all my life ( a trait found only in humans by the way) and have seen the damage it causes first hand. Every thing from murder to discrimination in housing employment , even getting picked last on the softball field, because this person or that is Gay! My question to all the bigots is why are you so interested in who or what I sleep with ,live with , or choose as a life partner ? and how is my sexuality affecting you or your life ,any more than yours affects mine? Learn to hate the haters they are the ones with the real issues.

Here ye, here ye. *applaudes*

Also, I'm sure I've seen a male dog humping another male dog..


edit: and according to wikipedia homosexuals body odour smells different to that of a straight persons.

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my god, there's so much to say... wish i could say it all, but i might get lost... :P

first of all,in catholicism, not only because God loves you it means you're doing fine... since God loves the good ones as he does the not so good ones... He created us up to be his IMAGE... it doesn't meant we've got the same wisdom He has... its up to us what we do with our lives...

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@ hollystyles

what we have to keep in mind is that the only reason why all human bodies born does not result in female bodies is because testosterone prevents the secretion of estrogen which would then turn the baby into female. and many environmental factors can influence this testosterone level in the womb.

DNA does not read like a roadmap. if a significant chemical is either present or absent then a given protein will not be synthesized even though it is coded in the genotype(the dna for a given trait as opposed to the characteistic in the organism's body).

hmm I think you forget that it is the "y" chromosome that is the single distinction within DNA that codes for males. Females have two x chromosomes (which is why they are less susceptible to genetic diseases carried by the x). At first, all humans grow similarly in the womb.. We are all female.. However, later in pregnancy, chemicals are released based on either two Xs or an XY chromosome, and this is when the differences between men and women come into play..

it seems to me rather strange that God says all homosexual males are eternally cursed and should be stoned to death. i am going to take sides here and say that homosexuality is a design flaw which has its roots on counting on the testosterone in the womb solely to be responsible for sexual differentiation.

I agree, it does seem strange for the Christians to be against the gays.. there is even discrimination in the bible.. If God made everyone in his image and likeness, then why does he dislike the gays? I grew up catholic.. and I remember attending CCE classes on Sunday (Sunday school). One year, my teacher was gay (you could tell quite easily by the way he dressed, talked, and actually took grades on stuff :-/). However, sometime after Christmas he was fired. We were told that the church felt his sexual orientation was not fit for teaching the children..

I find my self outraged that a thread like this ever began in such an "ENLIGHTENED" community. In the last few posts I have read things aperently writtin by educated individules who have some how reverted to a pre 1969 mentality , 1969 being the year the AMA or who ever it was decided that homosexuality was not a perversion nor a deviant sexual behaviour but a behaviour found in every species on the planet. they no longer treat the symptoms of homosexuality ,unfourtunatly many homosexuals do seek treatment due to depression and self loathing brought about by the closed minded bigotry we are awash in from the day we are born!
I am 47 years old and I have known bigotry all my life ( a trait found only in humans by the way) and have seen the damage it causes first hand. Every thing from murder to discrimination in housing employment , even getting picked last on the softball field, because this person or that is Gay! My question to all the bigots is why are you so interested in who or what I sleep with ,live with , or choose as a life partner ? and how is my sexuality affecting you or your life ,any more than yours affects mine? Learn to hate the haters they are the ones with the real issues.

There is nothing wrong with this thread. It is a simple evaluation of the gay community, and what we think. If you have a problem with it then you do not have to participate.

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I agree, it does seem strange for the Christians to be against the gays.. there is even discrimination in the bible.. If God made everyone in his image and likeness, then why does he dislike the gays? I grew up catholic.. and I remember attending CCE classes on Sunday (Sunday school). One year, my teacher was gay (you could tell quite easily by the way he dressed, talked, and actually took grades on stuff :-/). However, sometime after Christmas he was fired. We were told that the church felt his sexual orientation was not fit for teaching the children..

that's because, as i explain before, not because we have His image, we have his wisdom... actually, as i said before too, Christ once said gays would not be able to enter to Heaven... so that's mainly our thing with gays...

There is nothing wrong with this thread. It is a simple evaluation of the gay community, and what we think. If you have a problem with it then you do not have to participate.

yup... that's the whole point...

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All common human behavior has evolutionary causes. Societies that carried 'gay genes' apparently held some advantage over those that didn't. To treat evolution as a contest between individuals is to be mistaken. Also, not all human attributes are genetic, though -- some congenital attributes have to do with conditions in the womb, and occasionally are a result of the parent's or the grandparent's health and nutrition.

The fact that homosexuality is a physiological attribute, and not a mental choice, is obvious. Gay people react differently when exposed to certain armpit smells. The fact that you (assuming you're straight) are attracted to people of the opposite sex is not a choice you made. I know I never decided that I'd be attracted to women.

If you think that sexuality is a choice, that people decide to go one way or the other, that means that you're probably homosexual or bisexual.

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I think any form of discrimination is flat out disgusting. Not approving of the gay lifestyle is one thing, but it's abhorring to think that you would go so far as to hate someone that you've never even met.

I particularly took offense to Nichito's statement:
i have no problem in using something inventd or discovered by someone gay... but you will never ever see me sharing anything more than a professional relationship or none at all...
I don't understand why you would go so far as to refuse to even be on friendly terms with anyone who is gay. What does someone's sexual orientation have to do with sharing an interest in computer programming or Linux or any of 100,000 other topics two people can enjoy many a friendly conversation about??

I also see this statement as being rather selfish. You would never dare to ever be friends with someone who is gay, but if they've invented or discovered something (in other words, have something you need or want) then you'd be more than happy to use it. To me, that's no different than saying, "I don't like Michael at all. He's not a very nice person and I don't want to be friends with him. But if he offers me $100 bucks (something I want), sure I'll take it!" The only difference is in this case the narrator doesn't like Michael because he's not a nice person. You're saying you don't like a whole group of people you've never even met, which is prejudging at its worst!

I'm also confused by the whole religion discussion in this thread. What does your interpretation of the bible believing that homosexuals will or won't be accepted into heaven after they've passed away have to do with whether or not they will make loyal friends or be genuinely nice people while they're still alive? I'm Jewish and therefore don't believe in Jesus or the New Testament. Does the fact that I don't believe in your messiah mean that you refuse to have any conversations with me about computers? Differences are what makes the world go round.

I am not going to get into the nature versus nurture argument mostly because, without a degree in either biology or psychology, I don't feel qualified enough to debate it. Additionally, I doubt that any single thread on a tech forum is going to get anywhere that philosophers haven't been able to get in decades, and I see no point in debating in circles an argument that is theoretically unanswerable, at least in this day and age.

However, I stronly urge everyone who has participated in this thread to at least consider the fact that you are being closeminded or prejudging an entire group of people as being all around horrible people you would never have anything to do with because of their sexual orientation - whether or not it's your personal belief that their sexual orientation is a choice. Some of the comments I've read here have actually made me amazed that we're not on the verge of a second Holocaust. I also think, thus far, I'm the most dipolomatic, impartial person here.

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I think any form of discrimination is flat out disgusting. Not approving of the gay lifestyle is one thing, but it's abhorring to think that you would go so far as to hate someone that you've never even met.

Hmm.. I do not think people dislike the gays simply because they are gay.. I for one believe that blind hatred will lead to nothing but misunderstanding, pain, and possibly another mass genocide.. Groups such as the KKK, black panthers, nazis, etc. simply dislike a group of people for no particular reason.. this is idiotic.. However, this thread is about the gay community, and attempting to understand them. I do not think anyone here dislikes the gays.. if so, then it is for some reason or another (based off religion, society, etc.. not that any of thess reasons are legitimate).

I'm also confused by the whole religion discussion in this thread. What does your interpretation of the bible believing that homosexuals will or won't be accepted into heaven after they've passed away have to do with whether or not they will make loyal friends or be genuinely nice people while they're still alive? I'm Jewish and therefore don't believe in Jesus or the New Testament. Does the fact that I don't believe in your messiah mean that you refuse to have any conversations with me about computers? Differences are what makes the world go round.

Some people simply believe that gay people are subhuman.. that they are misfits or something.. Most of this stems from religion (Christianity in particular) and society. Gays have existed in the human race for a long time.. and they have been shunned from society until just recently..

However, I stronly urge everyone who has participated in this thread to at least consider the fact that you are being closeminded or prejudging an entire group of people as being all around horrible people you would never have anything to do with because of their sexual orientation - whether or not it's your personal belief that their sexual orientation is a choice. Some of the comments I've read here have actually made me amazed that we're not on the verge of a second Holocaust. I also think, thus far, I'm the most dipolomatic, impartial person here.

I don't think I have been closeminded or prejudice :-/. I chose to partake in this discussion simply to say my views on how gay people came about in the human race (from environmental factors.. not choice or genetics). I think this is a healthy debate to help people post their personal feelings, and possibly to help others become more accepting.

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:confused: I mostly agree with what you say except I believe I too am very diplomatic as well as impartial . I do tho feel a responsibility to speak out ,as you did also, against the haters in this world who prejudge entire groups of people based on what I can't be sure of ,a book written so long ago that people also believed the world was flat I for one have a very hard time dealing with ignorance . Especially self imposed ignorance the likes of such we have witnessed here.:angry: :-O :S

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However, I stronly urge everyone who has participated in this thread to at least consider the fact that you are being closeminded or prejudging an entire group of people as being all around horrible people you would never have anything to do with because of their sexual orientation - whether or not it's your personal belief that their sexual orientation is a choice. Some of the comments I've read here have actually made me amazed that we're not on the verge of a second Holocaust. I also think, thus far, I'm the most dipolomatic, impartial person here.

I wasn't. I was just an idiot. Would be abit hypocritical of me to hate gay people. I think the split is about 50/50 on prejudging and nonprejudging in this thread. Or maybe 25/75

However, this thread is about the gay community, and attempting to understand them.

What's to understand? The man loves a man in the same way you would love a woman. In the same way I support Newcastle and my brother supports Chelsea. You like what you like. Unless you're delberatly hurting someone then be how you be.

Edited by diafol: fixed formatting

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> wrong -- only about a third are Christian
Sorry, but when you have one sect killing members of another sect (say 'christians' in Northern Ireland in the recent past, or 'muslims' in Iraq today), I just can't accept that they're the same. No doubt that long list of disagreeable christian sects was included just to plump up that slice of the pie. Taken individually, not so impressive.

Hell, they can't even agree amongst themselves what the words mean, how are they supposed to convince anyone else (apart from that is, the usual threats). You'd think the word of 'god' would be incapable of alternative interpretations, but apparently not.

In fact, the bible has been sufficiently vague to enable those in power to justify pretty much anything they wanted it to mean. As soon as you've divided the population into "the believers" and "the rest", then it's an easy step to get to genocide, murder, persecution, slavery etc. After all, they're not "chosen", so it doesn't matter.

To parody a British film, "no sects please, we're atheists".

Anyway, this is my religion of the day - enjoy.

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I wasn't. I was just an idiot. Would be abit hypocritical of me to hate gay people. I think the split is about 50/50 on prejudging and nonprejudging in this thread. Or maybe 25/75

oh, you're gay?

What's to understand? The man loves a man in the same way you would love a woman. In the same way I support Newcastle and my brother supports Chelsea. You like what you like. Unless you're delberatly hurting someone then be how you be.

Are you kidding? Obviously there is a lot that people don't understand.. There are still many people who believe being gay is a choice.. or that it is some curse by god. This is a good thread for heterosexuals to post their opinions and thoughts.. and then for homosexuals to post their own thoughts and opinions.. A nice way for us all to become a bit more tolerant.

Edited by happygeek: fixed formatting

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> A nice way for us all to become a bit more tolerant.
I don't think tolerance is the current theme of this thread.

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I also see this statement as being rather selfish. You would never dare to ever be friends with someone who is gay, but if they've invented or discovered something (in other words, have something you need or want) .

The movie industry is a great example of that -- we all like good movies and good actors in them because we want to be entertained. But how many people outside the movie industry realize that most (or more accurately many actors are gay ? Yet we the audience flock to the threaters to watch them for entertainment value.

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> I don't think I have been closeminded or prejudice :-/.

> I mostly agree with what you say except I believe I too am very diplomatic as well as impartial .

With the exception of the line I quoted, I chose not to direct any of the statements within my post to individual people. Certainly not everything said applied to everyone just as there was no one person who exemplified everything I said. In my last paragraph, where I stated, "However, I stronly urge everyone who has participated in this thread to at least consider the fact that ...," I simply meant that everyone should reflect upon what I've said and evaluate for yourselves whether any of the comments I've made apply to you.

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@ cscgal

since i am the one who brought God into this i suppose i shall have to answer.

if you are atheist like myself, josh and i believe salem and rustybear too then this does not really matter. but if you are christian or moslem then it is everything. here i address salem as well.

The bible is very explicit when it comes to men having sex with men. so is the Koran. i have never seen anything about women having sex with women in the bible but about men it is very clear. one can debate something like "is the earth flat or is the earth round" but you cant debate something like "the sun shines everyday". the same here. God says in an inambiguous manner what he thinks of homosexuality.

also i am not against gays for any reason what so ever. i am merely curious. if it was none of my business then someone could just have said so.

also i believe that i am not at all prejudiced. what of what i have said indicates my prejudice? perhaps when i said "design flaw". but i was talking from a purely biological point. from that point we are all design flaws since our DNA is not as such that it can always renew or heal our bodies which leads to our eventual death.

@ josch

i know how an x and a y chromosome works duh! i just started my explanation of sexual differentiation after the testosterone had been produced and released. in modern art less is supposed to be more so i thought it redundend to start at the chromosomes if they are not needed to make the explanation clear.

btw hbk. are you lesbian? after your attacking josch for not wanting anything to do with a woman who might be better than him in some ways in the "booty or brains" it turns out that it does not even make a difference to you?

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