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Last Post by jwenting
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    The programming language you should know is the one you need for your current job at hand... I'm sick and tired of people telling me what I "should do", that I "am not a real programmer" because I don't use Scala, Smalltalk, or whatever. Read More

  • You're not a real programmer, you can't program in binary >:( Such are some elitist people. I would argue that people who create website front-ends (purely HTML) aren't programmers, but scripters instead. That's where my line is drawn ^^ Read More

  • HTML, XML, CSS, etc. are not programming languages, they are markup languages, so people who use them are not programming. Instead they are writing scripts for a browser to interpret. [This ](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Programming_language)seems to be a good article which discusses the differences between markup and programming languages. Read More

  • > I am not real big into labels anyways, as long as someone makes cool stuff that they are happy with then, rock on! It becomes an issue when they apply for "Programming" jobs, only list HTML and CSS, then wonder why we accuse them of not being able to … Read More

  • I'm going to post this from the viewpoint of an English only speaking person (apologies to mike_2000_17 and others). The first language you should learn is English. The most important skill you will require is the ability to communicate clearly. It doesn't matter how gifted you are as a programmer … Read More

4

The programming language you should know is the one you need for your current job at hand...
I'm sick and tired of people telling me what I "should do", that I "am not a real programmer" because I don't use Scala, Smalltalk, or whatever.

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I'm sick and tired of people telling me what I "should do", that I "am not a real programmer" because I don't use Scala, Smalltalk, or whatever.

Well... that just depends on the work you do.

The programming language you should know is the one you need for your current job at hand...

Very true.

2

You're not a real programmer, you can't program in binary >:(

Such are some elitist people. I would argue that people who create website front-ends (purely HTML) aren't programmers, but scripters instead. That's where my line is drawn ^^

Edited by Ketsuekiame

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I would argue that people who create website front-ends (purely HTML) aren't programmers, but scripters instead.

This used to be a lot more true in the past, but these days the line between front-end development and back-end development is much more blurred in my opinion. A great front-end developer does a great deal of progamming outside of the markup. If someone is only working with the markup and css then I would consider them to be a web designer.

I am not real big into labels anyways, as long as someone makes cool stuff that they are happy with then, rock on!

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HTML, XML, CSS, etc. are not programming languages, they are markup languages, so people who use them are not programming. Instead they are writing scripts for a browser to interpret. This seems to be a good article which discusses the differences between markup and programming languages.

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I am not real big into labels anyways, as long as someone makes cool stuff that they are happy with then, rock on!

It becomes an issue when they apply for "Programming" jobs, only list HTML and CSS, then wonder why we accuse them of not being able to fulfill the role...

Now, if they make dynamic content in ASP.NET/PHP or use ample amounts of JavaScript and jQuery I'd tend to be more lenient.

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It becomes an issue when they apply for "Programming" jobs, only list HTML and CSS, then wonder why we accuse them of not being able to fulfill the role...

I agree with you from that stand point. I was thinking on more of a personal level rather than someone looking for employment.

Of course I would usually expect to see something like "Looking for a PHP Programmer" or "Looking for a Java Programmer" rather than an ad for a job that just says "Looking for a Programmer" without any specifics. But then again, you'll always get people that apply for jobs that they are not qualified for.

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Sometimes HR (in their infinite wisdom) dumb down what you actually ask for; that's what they do with other more generic posts that require lesser qualification in order to increase capture rate.

However, some of our positions do actually go for "Software Developer" as they're expected to know C++\C#\ASP.NET\SQL

Typically anything I put out starts specific and becomes generic by the time it reaches the applicant :P

4

I'm going to post this from the viewpoint of an English only speaking person (apologies to mike_2000_17 and others). The first language you should learn is English. The most important skill you will require is the ability to communicate clearly. It doesn't matter how gifted you are as a programmer in whatever language or languages you have mastered. If you can't communicate effectively with others then you will be spending a lot of time redesigning and rewriting. And that's if you even get through the interview process. I've seen job applications rejected because of too many grammatical errors. The reason given was that the lack of attention to detail on something so important as a job application (the first impression) would likely be reflected in that person's code. Simple mistakes such as

  • confusing their, there and they're
  • confusing its and it's
  • confusing your and you're

indicate one or more of

  • a lack of rudimentary grammar skills
  • a lack of proper care (no proofreading)
  • a disdain for proper grammar

You may quite correctly say that a person who confuses its and it's can still communicate clearly and be a gifted designer/programmer and you would be correct. However, you only get one chance to make a first impression.

And as jwenting so correctly pointed out, "The programming language you should know is the one you need for your current job at hand". The right tool for the right job.

Votes + Comments
the nail on the head!
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The ads I've seen start with "Software Developer" then go on to be more specific about language requirements.

and HR departments still get it wrong...

Years ago worked as a consultant programmer, we got a request for a Java programmer to write a web application, applied for the projectg and got through HR approval.
When meeting with the project leads, turned out they weren't looking for a Java programmer or a web application, but a VB programmer for a desktop application.
Comparing the texts we had gotten from their HR department with the one they'd submitted to that same HR department, the two were completely different.
Different skillset, project description, everything. Just about the only thing that was the same was the name and contact information for the company.

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confusing your and you're

I see what you did there. ;D

and HR departments still get it wrong...

Indeed. I recall seeing a prominent job offer for a Java position requiring 10+ years of experience...in 2001. Clearly they were just using buzzwords and random numbers that sounded experienced.

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HTML, XML, CSS, etc. are not programming languages, they are markup languages, so people who use them are not programming. Instead they are writing scripts for a browser to interpret.

Then again, when you are programming in Java, you are technically writing 'something' that the JVM would interpret. I don't think it's really fair and seems elitist to say that because you 'only' write HTML/CSS/XML or what have you that you are not a 'programmer'. I mean I'm all for being elitist, but I think that the creating the distinction between 'programmer' and 'scripter' is futile and meaningless.

And then there are the things that a programmer is expected 'to be able to do' (given enough literature and examples).

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I mean I'm all for being elitist, but I think that the creating the distinction between 'programmer' and 'scripter' is futile and meaningless.

Did you bother to read the link I posted? Nothing eletist about it, would you call an electrical engineer a programmer? Of course not.

Edited by Ancient Dragon

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It is elitist if it's on the grounds that 'you don't/can't do what I do'. When common folk (the NOT programmers) hear programming, they would think 'nice text that make the computer do things!'. Though I suppose you're not really making the computer 'do things' (I mean it 'does' things, but you aren't making it 'do' things) in HTML/CSS. But common folk think so.

But if it's on the technicality that "the language you use does not 'compute'/express algorithms", then I guess it's fair. I guess there needs to be a new noun like Markup-writer or Markuper, as calling people that write markup as scripters might offend people that use things like Python or PHP.

I called it elitist because that's the vibe I've always felt from the argument, rooted from 'you can't/don't do what we do'.

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But if it's on the technicality that "the language you use does not 'compute'/express algorithms", then I guess it's fair. I guess there needs to be a new noun like Markup-writer or Markuper, as calling people that write markup as scripters might offend people that use things like Python or PHP.

I'm confused a bit by this. Are you saying that you do not think that Python and PHP are programming languages, and that they do not "compute" anything or "express algorithms"?

Edited by pixelsoul

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I called it elitist because that's the vibe I've always felt from the argument, rooted from 'you can't/don't do what we do'.

The relevant part of the quote has been bolded. How you feel is irrelevant in light of the facts. A markup language is indeed not a programming language, and calling it such is factually incorrect. Reading between the lines and then calling people elitist for pointing that out is no more fair than saying "you can't do what we do".

Also note that "can't" and "don't" are two very different words with different connotations in this context. In general and without qualification the former is demeaning while the latter is more neutral and could hardly be described as offensive.

Are you saying that you do not think that Python and PHP are programming languages

No. The intention is to describe "true" scripters as being offended that a "mere" markup author would be elevated to their status. The sentence is kind of twisty, but still internally consistent.

0

Personally, I do equal amounts of markup and programming and I agree with those who are saying that HTML etc. isn't programming. Here's a wee analogy:

Markup languages like HTML can be likened to interior designing; you know what you're doing as far as how to lay out furniture, select colours, shapes and other such design elements which make the room functional for its purpose, but also be aesthetically pleasing and so on. It is a highly skilled profession.

Programming and scripting could sort of be likened to building the house itself; it provides the framework behind the rooms which makes it possible to have rooms that support people, keep rain and wind out and make it structurally sound.

You may have a house built, but it's ugly and nobody wants to even enter. On the other hand, you may have all of your rooms thought out and designed, but you don't actually have a house with empty rooms to make your designs a reality. So as far as web projects go, without HTML, the back-end is pointless, but without the back-end, the HTML is pointless.

That is, until you start putting Javascript into your front-end...

Edited by Assembly Guy: Fixing typos

1

How you feel is irrelevant in light of the facts. A markup language is indeed not a programming language, and calling it such is factually incorrect. Reading between the lines and then calling people elitist for pointing that out is no more fair than saying "you can't do what we do".

That's fair enough. But of course we are social creatures and reading between the lines is part of what we do. But otherwise a fair point.

I wasn't trying to argue that HTML/CSS ARE programming languages. I was arguing with 'markup writers' bearing the name 'programmer'.

0

I recall seeing a prominent job offer for a Java position requiring 10+ years of experience...in 2001. Clearly they were just using buzzwords and random numbers that sounded experienced.

Or the one for a junior Windows 2000 administrator with at least 10 years experience in a professional environment of Windows 2000 networks I saw in 1999. And oh, they wanted someone of about 25 years old, seeing as they were looking for someone to join their "young and dynamic team" in a "rapidly changing company" with "many recent graduates".

It is elitist if it's on the grounds that 'you don't/can't do what I do'.

so now it's elitist to demand that a programmer actually can program rather than write an html document?

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