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    9/11 conspiracy theories are (or are used as) political toys of people opposed to the current US administration. "Blame Bush" is the only thing they have to "prove" their point. Remember these are the people who claimed that Bush has a secret machine that caused hurricane Katrina to kill people … Read More

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    Yeah, I am not surprised that you believe in a 9/11 conspiracy.. you obviously know nothing of math, physics, technology, economics, etc. Read More

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Anyone who really believes in some stupid 9/11 conspiracy is a complete dumbass.. There is no reason for some kinda of top secret conspiracy.. There is no way in hell they could have pulled something like that off anyway.. What with millions of people watching, video taping, the black box found from the plane that crashed over pennsylvania (I think it was pennsylvania), etc. The U.S. government would no, could no, and definitely were incapable of such a conspiracy. The South Park about a 9/11 conspiracy is such a good episode.. :D

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9/11 conspiracy theories are (or are used as) political toys of people opposed to the current US administration.
"Blame Bush" is the only thing they have to "prove" their point. Remember these are the people who claimed that Bush has a secret machine that caused hurricane Katrina to kill people opposed to him in New Orleans (ignoring the fact that a lot of people who voted for him in harder hit areas lost everything).
These are the people who claim that Bush somehow caused the tsunami that hit Indonesia and Ceylon, killing tens of thousands.
These are the people that claim that Bush destroyed TWA800 using some secret anti aircraft missile when there wasn't a ship in the area that had the capacity to carry any missile with enough range or power (and independent checks of US military arsenals around the world turned up that no single missile was unaccounted for).
They're the same people that claim that the moon landings never happened, that tens of thousands of people involved in the program were all paid to keep their mouths shut forever.

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I agree :)
Exactly.
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Interesting article about the Flat Earth Society. I'll bet they are also creationists who believe the earth is only 6,000 years old. Both turn a blind eye to scientific fact.

As for 9/11 -- my bet is that Bugs Bunny and Daffy Duck were behind it. They probably hired the Gremlins to do their dirty work.

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Planned by bush and his cronies - not a snowball in hell's chance.

Allowed to happen through incompetence and inaction of one or more previous administrations - pretty likely.

Caused by US foreign policy which continues to honk off a large majority of the worlds population with it's "we're all right jack" attitude - certainly.
Essentially summed up as "give us cheap oil and fuck the rest of you".

Exploited by bush under the guise of "security" to introduce a whole raft of laws, and "justify" all sorts of illegal activities as a consequence of the event - absolutely certain, no questions asked (then, since or now).
When speaking out in opposition is labelled "un-patriotic", can the jack-booted thought police be far behind?

The last thing the planet needs is a god-soaked moron in charge of the only super-power, who thinks he might have a prophetic destiny. Especially since he's surrounded by brown-nosing sycophants who would blindly make it happen.

Your founding fathers must be spinning in their graves at the things which have happened in the last decade or so.
http://www.wisdomquotes.com/000974.html

I'm glad I visited the US a long time ago before all this stuff happened, because I doubt I would ever want to visit again whilst it treats all visitors as criminals.

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I'm glad I visited the US a long time ago before all this stuff happened, because I doubt I would ever want to visit again whilst it treats all visitors as criminals.

We have to treat visitors that way. Not doing anything is what got us into this situation in the first place -- 9/11 that is. Had we had the more strict security measure that are in place today 9/11 probably would not have happened. Desipte our government's best efforts there are still pleanty of holes in our national security, one of them being the situation with illegal entry via Mexico which no one in Wash D.C. has the intestinal fortitude to resolve. Hopefully the next President of US (in January 2009) will do something about it.

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Hopefully the next President of US (in January 2009) will do something about it.

No matter the election outcome, I doubt that.

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Interesting article about the Flat Earth Society. I'll bet they are also creationists who believe the earth is only 6,000 years old. Both turn a blind eye to scientific fact.

Not quite. Creationists have some kind of a point, if you consider that God created the world he could have created it in such a way that it would appear to be a few billion year old, complete with fake dinosaur bones.
Remember that creationists hold the belief that God is omnipotent and thus can do whatever he wants and maybe he wants us to believe that the world is a few billion year old even if he wants us to know it was created 6000 years ago.

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Not quite. Creationists have some kind of a point, if you consider that God created the world he could have created it in such a way that it would appear to be a few billion year old, complete with fake dinosaur bones.
Remember that creationists hold the belief that God is omnipotent and thus can do whatever he wants and maybe he wants us to believe that the world is a few billion year old even if he wants us to know it was created 6000 years ago.

LOL: Hadn't thought of it quite that way, but I suppose He could have done that as a joke. My personal belief is that we are all just microscopic organisms living in a test tube.

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I think you are good people, i indeed believe that you are good people, and therefore it's natural that you want to believe that world is good, with occasional few bad guys somewhere.

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I think you are good people, i indeed believe that you are good people, and therefore it's natural that you want to believe that world is good, with occasional few bad guys somewhere.

you misunderstand me quite fundamentally if you think that way about me and the way I think...
I don't think the world is good and that most people are good at all. In fact I am firmly convinced that the vast majority of people are good (in the context of their own cultures and societies) only by the definitions of that culture and society and then only because they're afraid of the consequences of being anything else.

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In fact I am firmly convinced that the vast majority of people are good (in the context of their own cultures and societies) only by the definitions of that culture and society and then only because they're afraid of the consequences of being anything else.

Nonsense, these are bad people.

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Not quite. Creationists have some kind of a point, if you consider that God created the world he could have created it in such a way that it would appear to be a few billion year old, complete with fake dinosaur bones.
Remember that creationists hold the belief that God is omnipotent and thus can do whatever he wants and maybe he wants us to believe that the world is a few billion year old even if he wants us to know it was created 6000 years ago.

I have not found any evidence that God wants us to believe that the world is older then 6000 years when it really isn't although as there are more and more "sciences" springing up to disprove the creation theory there are more and more Christians that are simply using that as a explanation to an unproven theory. What so many Christians and people trying to prove them wrong forget with these kinds of things is that they are Conclusions, Theories and Deductions based on the information provided in the Bible but not is actually what is said. 6000 years was a (man made) estimate based on the information Provided in the Bible and yet so many Christians cling to this as the truth and so many scientists use it against Christians because they have proof against it. What both sides have to remember on this topic is that it is a man made deduction and therefore flawed.


Back on topic i stubled across this guy called Mark Dice the other day after seeing an article about him calling Scientology a Satan worshipping cult. Basically he has some pretty strange theories about the 9/11 attacks and various other things pretty much all a crock but there are some sample chapters on his website which are well worth a read if you have the time(i love a good conspiracy theory) which although mainly full of shit do make for a rather interesting read.

www.theresistancemanifesto.com

Also for all those interested the movie loose change is always a good one to watch. This one does point out some very interesting elements of the 9/11 bombings and actually use science and math as a basis for these things.

Personally i do not think that this one is a conspiracy however i think there is some information that has not been released to the public in relation to these events if not only to cover up the stupidity and embarresment over the time it took to respond and the way the whole situation was handled.

Conspiracies like this thrive on a lack of details released by the government mainly because people try to fill in the gaps with their own explanations this however does not make the explanations true.

Edit: The Moon Landing could have been fake though.

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@ dave
i certainly hope the the moon landings were not faked. at least i am sure that they are not. if they were faked why did rusia gave up the space race or did the american government fake the space race too.

It makes no sense for a government to do that kind of damage for some reason. the best motive for 9/11 conspiracy theory involves oil theft. take a good look at the economics of oil( i.e. producers, suppliers, consumers etc ) and you will see that the U.S. did not gain that much by such a conspiracy. In fact unless the U.S. is carting of ship loads of oil I dont see the gain of the war.

@ jwentig

if God really made the earth 6000 years ago but put in fake dino bones and stuff why was he so against us gaining knowledge etc? what would be the point? for example man was kicked out of the garden partly as punishment but mostly because he had knowledge making him half God-like and if he were to become immortal too... just read genesis properly. and at babilon too.

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@ dave
i certainly hope the the moon landings were not faked. at least i am sure that they are not. if they were faked why did rusia gave up the space race or did the american government fake the space race too.

I was actually only in the very early 90's that the moon landing being fake was brought up. Up till that point everyone had believed that there was a moon landing and many still do today. I think this would also include Russia and to answer your question about why Russia gave up with another question why would you keep running a race you have already lost?

It makes no sense for a government to do that kind of damage for some reason. the best motive for 9/11 conspiracy theory involves oil theft. take a good look at the economics of oil( i.e. producers, suppliers, consumers etc ) and you will see that the U.S. did not gain that much by such a conspiracy. In fact unless the U.S. is carting of ship loads of oil I dont see the gain of the war.

There are several motives that have been suggested in these conspiracy theories. One of the main ones that i have read about involves building 7 which also collapsed. Aparrently there was a large amount of Gold which went missing under it i forget the exact details and its probably better presented in something such as loose change.
Plus supposed further proof of this being a proper theory is that you did not really hear anything about the building 7 collapse on the news.

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@ lasher511

you are only proving my point that rusia gave up the space race when they lost it. I mean. if the moon landings were faked rusia would have continued.

you are right in that i have not heard about building seven. but the point is that the U.S. government gained nothing by such a conspiracy. Consider motive. Before I trip my best friend i am going to make danm sure that I gain a ship load of gold for him going down. Or at the least there must be a king cheeta chasing us both which of course is a motive by itself.

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9/11 was a conspiracy alright, a conspiracy by Mister Laden and friends. He and most of his friends are still on the loose, thanks to the fact that our boys are too busy pilfering Iraq right now. With boys I don't mean our troops, but their leaders.

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Planned by bush and his cronies - not a snowball in hell's chance.

Allowed to happen through incompetence and inaction of one or more previous administrations - pretty likely.

Caused by US foreign policy which continues to honk off a large majority of the worlds population with it's "we're all right jack" attitude - certainly.
Essentially summed up as "give us cheap oil and fuck the rest of you".

Exploited by bush under the guise of "security" to introduce a whole raft of laws, and "justify" all sorts of illegal activities as a consequence of the event - absolutely certain, no questions asked (then, since or now).
When speaking out in opposition is labelled "un-patriotic", can the jack-booted thought police be far behind?

The last thing the planet needs is a god-soaked moron in charge of the only super-power, who thinks he might have a prophetic destiny. Especially since he's surrounded by brown-nosing sycophants who would blindly make it happen.

Your founding fathers must be spinning in their graves at the things which have happened in the last decade or so.
http://www.wisdomquotes.com/000974.html

I'm glad I visited the US a long time ago before all this stuff happened, because I doubt I would ever want to visit again whilst it treats all visitors as criminals.

Right on the head. Demagoguery for the lose. It's a shame more of our own citizens haven't seen this much sooner. Yet, people are coming around slowly. Bush's approval rating is at 26% right now.

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@ lasher511

you are only proving my point that rusia gave up the space race when they lost it. I mean. if the moon landings were faked rusia would have continued.

Yes Russia gave up but that was because they believed it. As i said in my previous post it was not untill 1990 thats the moon landing conspiracy was raised. Which is how many decades after it actually took place. If the conspiracy had been raised right after the moon landing im sure russia would have kept going or at least sought evidence that it was real and the Americans would have wasted even more money on trying to prove that they went to the moon.

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Yes Russia gave up but that was because they believed it. As i said in my previous post it was not untill 1990 thats the moon landing conspiracy was raised. Which is how many decades after it actually took place. If the conspiracy had been raised right after the moon landing im sure russia would have kept going or at least sought evidence that it was real and the Americans would have wasted even more money on trying to prove that they went to the moon.

Actually, according to the wikipedia entry referenced earlier in the thread, there were some people holding that the whole thing was a conspiracy well before the '90s.

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>Yes Russia gave up but that was because they believed it.

one can probably not prove that the moon landings were not faked. i must admit that part of the reason that i believe that the moon landings were real is because i like to believe that it is an achievement for humans as a species. so perhaps i am looking through coloured glasses.

however. until someone actually prove that they were in actual fact faked i think i shall continue to believe tat they were real. remember that there also is no proof of the landings being faked either.

i read some crab about lighting not being right but i did not buy it. and also a friend of mine has this really nice thing about aliens already being on the moon and sending the humans back so that even though it is within human ability the aliens were or are already there. so they returned to earth and shoot the whole thing in some studio in order not to alarm the humans on earth. as proof he said that there was a considerable delay between the guys arriving up there and the actual broadcast they did back to earth. that delay was because they were returning to earth.

i dont know how long a trip back from the moon takes but unless the delay was a couple of days it is of course all BS.

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The usual argument: In general, the moon is about one light-second from the earth. So with Lightspeed transmissions, it should take two seconds from the time something is said on earth, to the time the response gets back. The delays were longer than two seconds, so they obviously weren't where they were supposed to be.

My question on that: What, you're not going to allow the astronauts to take a moment to think about what they're going to say?

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The moon is 1.3 light seconds from the earth. So the round trip is almost 3 light seconds. The astronauts also have to have time to react to the received material, look at instruments, and form their replies to unexpected questions. And they have to move their hands to reach for their talk buttons, if they aren't switched to vox (voice operated transmission).

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These conspiracy theories all rest on one salient fact: You can't prove something does not exist or didn't happen in secret.

So the government can't possibly disprove any of the following conspiracy theories, whether they are true or not:

- The government has the bodies of space aliens from a UFO crash.
- President Bush wanted an armed conflict in Iraq.
- The outing of Valerie Plame was done intentionally. (I think it was a case of someone being told secret information in a secret meeting without being told that the particular information was secret.)
- There was a conspiracy to steal the 2000 and 2004 elections.
- Saddam Hussein had weapons of mass destruction.
- The break-in at Watergate was an intentional plan to spy on Democrat strategy. (I think it might be the opposite - the Democrats planted a false sex scandal and gave just a room number.)

There are some disproofs to other claimed conspiracies:

- I can disprove the "dimpled and prengnant chad were attempts to vote" conspiracy myself. I used to service the same kind of Documation card readers they used in the election. As a weekly test, we used to run decks of new blank cards through the readers multiple times. Dimpled chad appearing on the new cards was an indication that the machine should be changed out for service. Dirt was jamming the sense-pins.

- UFOs did not cause the 1965 Northeast Blackout. A shift in phase between voltage and current did. The data are in the FPC report, but nobody noticed them at the time of the investigation. I noticed them in 1996.

- Not only was there a "magic bullet" that made 7 wounds in the John Kennedy assassination, but there was no magic in it. It traveled a straight-line trajectory. And that shot has been duplicated on television at least 3 times.

- The fires in the World Trade Centers were more than hot enough to cause the buildings to fall, and they would have caused them to fall in the way they actually fell. The temperature did not have to get hot enough to melt the steel. It just had to get hot enough that the steel changed back into iron and lost its extra strength. That happens at about half the melting temperature.

The WTC was constructed with all of its vertical supports around the exterior of the building. Then, steel cross members held up the concrete floors. What happened is that the heat from the jet fuel fires raised the temperature of the cross members high enough that the steel stopped being steel. Then, all it took was one floor coming loose.

The steel on one floor failed enough to let the concrete slab drop onto the slab below it. But the steel on the floor below wasn't strong ehouch to hold up TWO slabs, so it failed too, dropping both slabs onto the next floor. This process continued all the way to the ground. Meanwhile, without the cross members keeping them straight, the vertical supports failed, letting the top of the building follow the rest of it down.

- Ham raido enthusiasts with beam antennas were following the Apollo missions. Beam antennas are high gain antennas which are extremely directional. They can pick up signals within just a degree or two of the direction they are pointed. If the missions were fake, the beam antennas, aimed at the location of the astronauts, would not have picked up any signals.

Amateur astronomers also saw the debris cloud from the oxygen leaking from Apollo 13 before the astronauts and ground crews had realized that a leak was responsible for the trouble.

- Saddam Hussein did admit after he was captured that he had planted a false plan to use weapons of mass destruction. His intent was to identify a double agent. He found the agent - and started the Iraq war.

Saddam also said in the 60 Minutes interview that he intended to send more financial support to Al Qaeda.

These two facts makes me think there is another conspiracy - A "Get Bush" conspiracy in the news media. After these events appeared briefly on the news, they have been suppressed ever since. They should be the major evidence in determining what really happened. But reporters still claim that Bush would have gone to war no matter what.

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- UFOs did not cause the 1965 Northeast Blackout. A shift in phase between voltage and current did.

Ah, but you can't prove that UFOs didn't cause that phase shift that caused the blackout :)

Ham raido enthusiasts with beam antennas were following the Apollo missions.

No doubt some conspiracy theorist will come up with a crackpot idea about the CIA having some secret device that makes people think transmissions come from somewhere else than they really do (just like the secret hurricane machine Bush supposedly has and a lot of other secret things that are beyond the realm of reality but that conspiracy theorists claim the US government has, the proof of that being them not existing openly).

These two facts makes me think there is another conspiracy - A "Get Bush" conspiracy in the news media.

That's fact. Though Bush is collateral, they'd have gone after any president who's not a member of the Dhimmycritter party.

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