Newtown Aftermath

[Reverend Jim]

If anyone is interested, there have been over 3530 gun deaths in the USA since the Newtown shootings. Details on those deaths can be found here. Boston got shut down while police hunted for the remaining man responsible for the injuries and deaths taking place in one incident. Where is the outrage over the more than 3000 dead between last December and today?

[Ancient Dragon]

That's hardly what one could call a valid source of information. How many of those were reported multiple times for the same death? No way to know because anyone can report deaths via twitter!! Since when did twitter become an authority source for anything?

Even if it were true (which I doubt), how many more deaths have occured buy automobile accidents? Or by other causes? Am I alarmed at 3530 gun deaths? Hell no. We in us need more guns, not fewer.

[jwenting]

Even if the number were correct (and it isn't, not just the Twitter source data is suspect, the Slate motives are even more so) most would be criminals taking potshots at each other. Can't have enough of those. Much cheaper than putting them all through trials and keeping them in prison.
And of course more laws aren't going to stop criminals using guns, they're not allowed to use them according to dozens of laws already yet don't seem to mind all that much...

Over here in Europe there's a lot of violent crime as well, including gun crime, all using weapons that are illegal.
Only difference is, criminals can do whatever they like here because they're the only ones who have weapons, so they target little old ladies and families with small children, knowing they will have an easy go at it and their victims will be unable to defend themselves before they're killed to prevent them from identifying the criminals to the police.

[TonyG_cyprus]

I suppose we're lucky here on Cyprus, there's crime, and some violent crime, but not nearly as much as the rest of Europe, or the Americas. It was explained to me, by a policeman friend. This is a small island. The indigenous people have lived village like for generations, and families are intertwined island wide. The clear up rate for most crime is quite high because of that, everybody knows the good and bad, and before long the crims boast to a good one, and they tell their police friend or relative and knock, knock, you're nicked. It's still quite refreshing that after living here for nine years, I and my Wife, still feel safe walking home from the pub at 2am, when folk stop, the only thing you are likely to get asked is 'had a good night?' and not 'gimme your wallet!'

[Ancient Dragon]

Cyprus sounds like a great place to live! Something like the small farming-community town I live in, population about 2500. The most crime we have had in many years is kids playing pranks on holloween night. My wife grew up in a town even better with population of 350. Everyone was related to everyone else in that town.

[Reverend Jim]

That's hardly what one could call a valid source of information.

Did you notice that most of those (click on a body) come with a link to a news article which is the source for that death?

how many more deaths have occured buy automobile accidents?

Automobiles serve a much more useful purpose and are much more heavily regulated than guns. Would you agree that regulating and tracking guns to the same extent would be a good idea?

Even if the number were correct (and it isn't, not just the Twitter source data is suspect, the Slate motives are even more so)

So you are saying that the news articles that are linked to for the deaths are bogus?

most would be criminals taking potshots at each other. Can't have enough of those.

Right. We just had two innocent people in my city killed by criminals supposedly taking potshots at each other.

And of course more laws aren't going to stop criminals using guns, they're not allowed to use them according to dozens of laws already yet don't seem to mind all that much...

So your argument is "criminals don't obey the laws anyway so why bother". By that argument, why do we have any laws. "Let's outlaw robbery. Oh, wait, the criminals will just ignore that one so scrap that."

The indigenous people have lived village like for generations, and families are intertwined island wide. The clear up rate for most crime is quite high because of that,

CSI: Cyprus

COP: Sir, can you describe the suspect?
WITNESS: It was Dave.

Makes for a boring show but a great community.

[Ancient Dragon]

Automobiles serve a much more useful purpose and are much more heavily regulated than guns. Would you agree that regulating and tracking guns to the same extent would be a good idea?

To my knowledge guns are already more heavily regulated than driver's licenses. In USA you (almost always) have to have a police background check in order to buy guns, that's not true of driver's licenses. And just like guns in the hands of criminals there are a lot of people driving around without driver's license.

We just had two innocent people in my city killed by criminals supposedly taking potshots at each other.

That happens all too often here in St Louis MO too. Bullets penetrate the walls of houses to kill a small child watching TV. Other than that, I don't care if criminals shoot each other. Gangs are big in St Louis, which makes St Louis one of the most dangerous cities in the USA.

So your argument is "criminals don't obey the laws anyway so why bother".

No, that's not the point. Police have to have the laws in order to make arrests, can't arrest someone for doing something that is not illegal. Just don't expect criminals to pay any attention to the laws. Making a law to ban knives is not going to stop anyone from buying a knife.

[Reverend Jim]

We in us need more guns, not fewer.

Kaufman County District Attorney Mike McLelland and his wife, Cynthia were murdered in their home. He carried a gun at all times and his wife was licensed to carry a hidden weapon. Their son said that they had guns hidden all over the house. So tell me how more guns equals safer.

And then their's this little tidbit. (I'll try to attach the picture. No guarantee it will work)

In USA you (almost always) have to have a police background check in order to buy guns

Oh really. Unless you buy the weapon at a gun show. And the NRA is opposed to closing that little loophole. And the NRA is opposed to having law enforcement agencies share gun info, something that is routinely done for vehicle registration and licencing.

[Ancient Dragon]

Unless you buy the weapon at a gun show

What's why I said "almost"

Kaufman County District Attorney Mike McLelland and his wife, Cynthia were murdered in their home

That unfortunate incident could have happened anyway. But there are lots more where armed women have shot and killed an assiliant (I like stories with a happy ending).

[Reverend Jim]

Current federal law requires criminal background checks only for guns sold through licensed firearm dealers, which account for just 60% of all gun sales in the United States. A loophole in the law allows individuals not “engaged in the business” of selling firearms to sell guns without a license—and without processing any paperwork. That means that two out of every five guns sold in the United States changes hands without a background check.

So "almost all" = 60%?

But there are lots more where armed women have shot and killed an assiliant

There are also plenty of stories at the other extreme. Like the two year old boy who was accidentally shot on Christmas day. His father had recently bought the gun because he felt it would make his home safer. Or the 8 year old Lapwei, Idaho boy killed in an accidental shooting. Or the 9 year old Oregon City girl killed in an accidental shooting. Or the 13 year old Jacksonville, Florida girl killed in an accidental shooting. Or the 3 year old Sumter, South Carolina boy who was accidentally killed. How much safer were these children because the family had more guns? I can do this all day.

[Ancient Dragon]

Congress is not going to change that loophole either. They aren't going to make people do background checks to privately sell a weapon to someone else. I saw that issue discussed on CNN a while back.

How much safer were these children because the family had more guns?

No amount of gun laws are going to prevent those tradegies. The only possible way to do so is to disarm America, and that will happen when Hell freezes over. Americans are not about to give up their guns for any one or any government. Just try and there will be a huge blood bath.

[Reverend Jim]

No amount of gun laws are going to prevent those tradegies.

So then let's please put to rest the completely bullshit argument that the solution to the gun problem is more guns. The argument is that guns make you safer. You already have more guns per capita than any other nation on Earth and you also have the highest gun homicide rate of any developed nation. So exactly how are more guns making you safer?

A gun in the home makes the likelihood of homicide three times higher (Kellermann AL et al. Gun Ownership As a Risk Factor for Homicide in the Home. New England Journal of Medicine 1993;329:1084-1119, p. 1084.), suicide three to five times higher (Kellermann AL et al. Suicide in the Home in Relation to Gun Ownership. New England Journal of Medicine 1992;327: 467-72, p. 467., Wiebe, DJ. “Homicide and Suicide Risks Associated With Guns in the Home: A National Case-Control Study.” Annals of Emergency Medicine 2003;41:771-82, p.780.) and accidental death four times higher (Wiebe D.J. Firearms in US homes as a risk factor for unintentional gunshot fatality. Accident Analysis and Prevention 2003;35:711-716.)

For every time a gun in the home injures or kills in self-defense, there are 11 completed and attempted gun suicides, seven criminal assaults and homicides with a gun, and four unintentional shooting deaths or injuries (Kellermann, A. et al. Injuries and Deaths Due to Guns in the Home. Journal of Trauma, Injury, Infection, and Critical Care 1998;45:263-67, p.263.)

Americans are not about to give up their guns for any one or any government. Just try and there will be a huge blood bath.

That's what it boils down to. There are no valid arguments for more guns or fewer gun controls (something the NRA is actively pursuing). So let's just admit that as a nation you've painted yourselves into a corner. The genie is out of the bottle and it ain't goin' back in. You were so afraid of Saddam Hussein and his weapons of mass destruction. I guess you only take action when it's other people who have 'em.

[jwenting]

let's say instead that as a nation the USA has achieved a situation where the government won't be able to turn its citizens into mindless, obedient, drones of the state and you have the reality.
That's what the second amendment set out to achieve, and that is what it has hopefully achieved by this time, as I see the time coming quickly when the US government will indeed try to outlaw the posession of weapons and go on the confiscation route.

[TonyG_cyprus]

a situation where the government won't be able to turn its citizens into mindless, obedient, drones of the state

You don't need to go that far, but you do somehow need to instill a sense of responsibility and reason into the general populace, and I don't know how that could possibly be achieved at this stage of the game. The debate is so heated at this point, I can see folk starting to shoot one another over the argument, and the whole thing turns another corner. It will be like the civil war all over, only instead of north versus south, it'll be more guns versus less guns.

[TonyG_cyprus]

And yes AD, it is a great place to live. Folk are friendly, many speak English, although i am trying to learn Greek, traffic is a breeze,( three cars in front of you at the lights is a traffic jam!) and the weather is good.
And yes Rev, it is almost like that, except it wasn't Dave, it was Bill.

[Reverend Jim]

as a nation the USA has achieved a situation where the government won't be able to turn its citizens into mindless, obedient, drones of the state

In France when the people were getting screwed over by the system they rioted in the streets. The closest we've seen so far in the US was the Occupy Wall Street movement and that died out when they started arresting people.

I see the time coming quickly when the US government will indeed try to outlaw the posession of weapons and go on the confiscation route.

The screaming and wailing about the government seizing weapons is a political ploy by the Right to discredit the current government. Nothing the Democrats has done indicates any intention to outlaw all weapons. It's all rhetoric to get people to vote with their emotions instead of their brains. Do you really believe that Obamacare was an attempt to kill grandma and grandpa? It was if you believe the Death Panel crap that was spouted by the Right. By keeping the focus on the emotional issues people's attention is taken off things like the environment and the economy.

When governments fear the people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny. - Thomas Jefferson

[jwenting]

you do somehow need to instill a sense of responsibility and reason into the general populace, and I don't know how that could possibly be achieved at this stage of the game.

that's got nothing to do with guns though... In my experience dealing with Americans however, gun owners tend to be overall more responsible and sensible individuals than those that don't own them (or even decry that they're evil).
Maybe the mandatory safety training many counties require prior to issue of a carry license has something to do with it, combined with the knowledge that they are now responsible for a tool that can easily be used to take a life in a way that posession of a kitchen cleaver does not.

It will be like the civil war all over, only instead of north versus south, it'll be more guns versus less guns.

rather, it will be about the right to defend oneself against state opression, triggered by attempted state oppression.
If it's those who have guns that can fight that fight, that will show clearly that indeed guns are needed to defend oneself against state oppression.

[jwenting]

The closest we've seen so far in the US was the Occupy Wall Street movement and that died out when they started arresting people.

which was orchestrated by the government and died down when the negative press about it (the rampant rapes, looting, unsanitary conditions, etc. etc.) got worse than the propaganda value.

There's always some drones in a country, and the 0.01% or so making up the "occupy movement" are the US equivalent.

[Reverend Jim]

and the 0.01% or so making up the "occupy movement"

That plus the other 90% who were more interested in what the Kardashians are up to.