Mumbo in front of the Jumbo

[Salem]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/6979292.stm
It seems gods can be bought off pretty easily - just two goats.

I'd be demanding at least half a dozen priests or maybe a royal prince. But two goats, that's just an insult.

Put it this way, if you asked about the maintenance schedule and they came back, "well, we've sacrificed a couple of goats", would you get on the plane?. I prefer the qualified technicians with a maintenance manual.

As the saying goes, one man's religion is another man's belly laugh.

[Lardmeister]

Interesting story! Interesting that it worked, maybe there is an economical application of religious ceremonies in aircraft maintenance. To be really safe, each passenger should sacrifice a goat before boarding the plane.

[hbk619]

Riiiiiiiiiiight, remind me not to fly with them.

[Sturm]

Wait a second... I thought this was the 21st century...

[vegaseat]

Maybe, when they cut the throats of the goats, some sacrificial blood spattered onto the plane's loose wiring and made it hold its contact. No, it was most likely the god of flight and fertility.

Neat title for the thread Salem!

[Lardmeister]

It was Akash Bhairab, the Hindu god of sky protection. I make a small offering to her before every flight. So far it has worked!

[MidiMagic]

Mumbo in front of jumbo?

Isn't that a description of declaring variables?

[Lardmeister]

Mumbo in front of jumbo?

Isn't that a description of declaring variables?

Now that is truly funny!

[Ravenous Wolf]

is it any different from christians praying for a safe journey? or any other form of praying in times of need.

>vegaseat
>Neat title for the thread Salem!

yeah. salem does have a way with words!

[Sturm]

>is it any different from christians praying for a safe journey? or any other form of praying in times of need.

No its not any different.

[EnderX]

Yes, it is. A prayer doesn't require a sacrifice. The last sacrifice required by Christianity was called in ~2k years ago.

[quintoncoert]

Yes, it is. A prayer doesn't require a sacrifice. The last sacrifice required by Christianity was called in ~2k years ago.

i think that the point is that in both cases, praying and sacrificing, the guy hope that a god would intervene where someone else might prefer a good clutch and brake specialist or electronics technician.

[Ravenous Wolf]

Yes, it is. A prayer doesn't require a sacrifice. The last sacrifice required by Christianity was called in ~2k years ago.

true. it is not. the prayer aught to be less effective. the priest did not even sacrifice!

the point is that salem would prefer a technician instead of a sacrifice. but what if the guy who made the sacrifice was christian? i get the impression that he would have said a prayer and send the technician away.

[John A]

I think there is a difference. We as Christians are taught "not to put the Lord our God to the test". In other words, the point isn't so that we can just snap our fingers and something will be done, instead, God is there when we actually need him. When we pray for a safe journey, we're praying for things that are not in our control. Clearly, these guys didn't need a superior being to fix their technical difficulties. I don't know much about other religions, but anyone who thinks they can just use God as a tool is not a true Christian.

Just my two cents.

[Ravenous Wolf]

@joeprogrammer

let me see if i get this right.

lets say you live in a third world country and there is a severe lack of expertise to the point that planes fall every day and the technicians just are not good enough to service//maintain the planes. that is the only way to service these planes is to fly(!!!lol) to america or brittain or somewhere. then the situation is clearly out of your hands since chances are that the plane will fall when flown halfway accross the world in ordr to be serviced.

then you can say a little prayer in order to fly the plane safely to america in order to have it serviced which is of course in the hands of man.

what if your airline is on the brink of being bankrupt and hundreds of jobs are on the line and so many many children will go hungry. would it be pushing your luck to lets say reduce the trips for service to america by half and then count on prayer to make up the missing part?

[twomers]

>> the prayer aught to be less effective [than the sacrifice].
Well that would make sense if both the religions were the same and the god to which you sacrifice ... it's like comparing apples and oranges. Sure they have similar properties (weight etc) ... (the apples and oranges that is), but many clear cut differences.

So no. The prayer aught not be less effective than a sacrifice.

[Ravenous Wolf]

@twomers

you do of course realise that what you are saying is that the one and only true god is the one the prayer is directed to? so you are in actual fact saying that all religions except yours are false?

look i think i better lay off. i dont want to attack people's religion but my atheism is under constant attack so it just feels nice to be on the other side. for a change.

[twomers]

No. That's not what I said.
While it is what I believe (I don't see any reason to deny that), my post said: "prayer aught not be less effective than a sacrifice", from the arguement I put forward in the same. I did not say "my religion is right", or anything suggesting my beliefs being the only correct ones. I didn't even say anything about my beliefs.

What I did was acknowledge that my religion and beliefs may not be right (or rather that others believe in other beliefs). I said "aught not be less effective", not "the only way".

Wolf, I wasn't attacking your athesism and I would appreciate it if you wouldn't put words in my mouth.

[Ravenous Wolf]

@ twomers

i know you werent attacking me! i was not talking about you. i live in a very conservative community. not a day goes by without everyone from my best friend to the village priests all seeing it as their duty to bring me back to the lord. i dont know when they are going to bring out the "burning at the stake"!

on the web i am annonimous so i can have a real crack at the religious!

>>"prayer aught not to be less effective"
no. you are wrong. not less means more. so if you substitute not less you end up with prayer aught to be more effective.

[EnderX]

Quick lesson in Mathematics:

< Less Than
> Greater Than
= Equal
<= Less Than or Equal
>= Greater Than or Equal
! Not/Negation.

!(<) = (>=). !(<) != (>)

[twomers]

>> you are wrong. not less means more.
Well if that's how you view the wording then I am wrong. But it is not what I meant.

"Aught not be less". Doesn't have to be less. Could me more. Could be the same. Still could be less.

It was first suggested that prayer should be less effective than sacrifice. So I put forward the opinion prayer doesn't have to be less effective than sacrifice if the god to whom you pray doesn't require sacrifice.

[John A]

lets say you live in a third world country and there is a severe lack of expertise to the point that planes fall every day and the technicians just are not good enough to service//maintain the planes. that is the only way to service these planes is to fly(!!!lol) to america or brittain or somewhere. then the situation is clearly out of your hands since chances are that the plane will fall when flown halfway accross the world in ordr to be serviced.

From your point of view, it wouldn't make any difference whether or not someone prayed prior to the flight. Either way, if you can't get technicians to the plane (from your point of view) it's unsafe. So what's your point?

[Ravenous Wolf]

@ joeprogrammer

i would have though the point is obvious. there is no difference between the people who sacrifce a goat to their god of the sky and a christian who pray to christ to protect the plane.

someone, i think it was you but it does not really matter who, then said that god cannot be ordered or tested or invoked like some programming method to do someone's bidding. but in time of real need god can help. i suppose someone praying before a journey or in times of crisis is praying because he now needs real help because there is no hope for him and only god can help him.

i painted a picture in which there was no testing or invoking of god. i painted a picture of a real crisis. of real children dying of hunger if their fathers lose their jobs. in other words a situation of real need. in that case does it help to pray to God? if the only way to safe the airline and protect the jobs was to cut service by half would it help to substitute the cut away part of the service by prayer?

[twomers]

>> there is no difference between the people who sacrifce a goat to their god of the sky and a christian who pray to christ to protect the plane.

I think you're somewhat biased here, Wolf. There are four cases you must consider for this arguement (of only god to whom they sacrificed a goat and the Christians'. Obviously the options scale up and up and up if you wish to introduce more).

I) There are no gods
II) There is one (lets say the god of the sky)
III) There is one (lets say the Christians' God)
IV) There are two (in case II, and III above).

If you wish to argue sensibly you have to be objective about your beliefs. You mentioned that your beliefs are of case I above. In that case you are right. Sacrifice and prayer are useless.
If II exists and the god of the sky demands sacrifice then sacrificing goats would be more effective than prayer.
If III exists then the prayer should have more weight than a goat.
And if the case is IV then it depends I guess.
And you cannot use your beliefs as a bases on which to judge every eventuality. Just suppose for one instance that you are wrong and that either case II or III is correct... Anyway.

God-threads always go bad so I'm going to leave this here.

[John A]

>there is no difference between the people who sacrifce a goat to their god of the sky and
>a christian who pray to christ to protect the plane.

Of course. But when Salem created this thread, he was implying that they had technical assistance available and instead of using it, they did a religous ceremony. Your hypothetical story mentioned the lack of technical support. So in the first situation, (at least Christians) would be putting God to the test by asking God to miraculously fix it, thereby saving them repair fees. In the second situation however, what difference does it make to you what religious ceremonies were perfomed? You'd still see the plane as unsafe. :icon_rolleyes:

And of course, I don't want to turn this into a religion debate. Those tend to get ugly.

[Ravenous Wolf]

@ twomers and joepogrammer

the last two posts of both of you are perfectly valid.

@ joeprogrammer.

"puuting to the test" is an interesting point of view but i do see that point.