well AgileMind, I also keep the facts of my own country in mind. fact is, over here, there are people who get a social house (so, basically paid by the community), who get wellfair, who refuse jobs when offered, yet do have some job(s) on the side which they don't declare.

saying that they are not educated in sex-ed .. well, no offence. that's just crock. by now they're smart enough to have figured out where the babies come from, and what condoms can do.
no, I'm not saying that they're all in that financial situation before getting pregnant, but ... again, a well known fact. there are enough couples (I don't assume America - or any other country, for that matter - is so different from here) who basically just keep getting children, because they get social benefits and childsupport for them.

yes, people live longer, but (again: looking at our own situation) if there were better and more effective controls on those abusing the system, thre would be a lot more money to provide for those who worked a full career, even for those who didn't.

These stereotypical "welfare queens" do exist, but they are a tiny fraction of the whole, a very tiny fraction. Right-wing rhetorics keep painting the entire population receiving gov. benefits as all being welfare queens / kings, exactly as you've painted it. The reality is, if you were to "solve" that problem, i.e., having "effective controls against abuse of the system", it would barely be noticeable in the overall budget. Right-wing politicians / pundits keep peddling that stereotype in an effort to justify cutting these programs, that's all this is, class warfare.

saying that they are not educated in sex-ed .. well, no offence. that's just crock. by now they're smart enough to have figured out where the babies come from, and what condoms can do.

What do you mean by "by now"? You do understand that teenagers today are the same age as teenagers from previous generations. They haven't lived longer or know more stuff somehow "by now", they still need to be educated and taught about stuff, like sex-ed. The truth is, sex-ed does have a clear effect, like, for example, the fact that teenage pregnancies are most common is areas that prone "abstinence-only" education (or no sex-ed at all). Clearly, if you don't teach teenagers about contraception and protection against STDs, they will have a lack of knowledge about it, which will lead to more teenage pregnancies and STD spreads.

Your argument makes no sense. I could say "by now kids are smart enough to have figured out how to do math, so we don't need to teach them about it".

The truth is, teenage motherhood and poor women having too many children are problems that are most prominent in areas where access to sex education, contraceptives and abortions are lacking. These three things have a clear impact, and the alternatives (abstinence?) fail miserably. BTW, the Replublicans de-funded "Planned Parenthood" which is one of the main organizations who were providing these important services, another brilliant move that those epic knuckle-heads!

I get the point AD is trying to make. I agree that if you can't afford to keep something than you should't try to acquire it. This applies to houses, boats, and, yes, even children. I agree that children can be unplanned but sometimes they are unplanned, not because of carelessness but because of ignorance (when proper sex-ed is not taught) or because of rape (which certain parties have stated would still not qualify you for an abortion). But when the rich decide that you should not be able to afford a house, car, family, because they want an even bigger piece of the pie then there is something seriously wrong.

Here is a short (7 minute) video narrated by Ed Asner that is causing a bit of a stir in some circles. I especially like the discussion of the "look over there" strategy that has been used by several administrations to distract us from the real issues.

so people now live a lot longer than they were supposed to based on the design of the pension system.

Well, that's going to be changing if the Republicans get their way with their attempts to shut down Obamacare and privatice Social Security. And it is expected that the current generation of middle aged women will have a shorter life expectancy than their mothers.

There is no obligation for a people to serve a government and economic system that doesn't serve them. Either we reform the system to promote equal access to investment capital, or we melt the dollar and the meek will inherit the earth. That isn't a threat, its a covenant.

I agree that children can be unplanned but sometimes they are unplanned, not because of carelessness but because of ignorance (when proper sex-ed is not taught)

we never had sex ed when I was a kid, yet nobody got pregnant. There were no teen pregnancies in my school, and similarly when I was in university none of the students got pregnant (or ended up with a pregnant girlfriend afaik).
We also didn't have ready access to cheap condoms.

We just didn't go around and shag every bit of female flesh we saw...

ignorance is no excuse here, carelessness and an attitude that "the government will take care of me no matter what happens" are the culprits.
Not going to talk about moral decline, that's nonsense (every generation complains about the moral decline of the one that comes after them, this has been recorded for thousands of years).
No, it's a symptom of the entitlement generation, the "I'm not responsible for my own acts, whatever they may be" generation.

Deceptikon is right, breast feeding is almost always an option. And if not, if there really is a medical necessity, alternatives are available (like handpumps for a mother to milk her own breasts, then use the milk to feed the baby, those are cheap and can be rented or borrowed).
Artificial solutions are only needed in case the mother can't produce milk (or not enough) which is a medical emergency, and not subject to restrictions on social security plans.

WOW the lack of respect on here

This is very disrespectful ok me and my gf we both have ful time jobs we work long hours but don't get paid jack sh** for the work we do. With utilities 2 car payments 2 xars to insure to get back and forth from our jobs which is vital to make sure we keep our jobs health insurance cell phones. We do not have or need a house phone and also we have 15 yr old teenager we have to pay for school and lunches we work very hard for everything we have and by the way Mr. A** formula is $15 per can our now 2 month old goes through a can every 2-3 days yeah might not sound like much to you but we pay our bills we work hard for everything we have but WIC is vital for the babies not the parents apparently you never raised a child nor do ya know how expensive it can be to raise a child. I don't appreciate your lack of respect either just. And who ever of you think its wrong to have babies god I'd love to punch you square in your face yes I get where your coming from but grow up and realize monry doesn't grow on trees while you sit idely in your parents basement on the computer all day judging peoples lives keep in mind the rest of us have real jobs and real concerns to worry about and we work long hours and barely make ends meet so don't ever assume you know what were going through you dont know what we've been through plain and simple

nobody is forcing you to stay at your current job and not looking for a better one.
how are we to know your situation, if you don't bother to mention any of it? we were talking in general, we can't help it if you decide to consider it a personal attack to you.

do you think you are the only one(s) having financial issues when raising their children?

my parents both worked in a factory from their early teens, they raised both me and my sister, allowed us to do sports, so we wouldn't become "hey look, a tv" kids, they provided us with the possibility of playing around and all a child can long for. they also made it possible for both of us to go to a decent college, so we could "impress" any recruiters with that o-so-nice to have degree they've never gotten.

they did all that while having a job that is far from considered to be well paid. to be honest, when I worked for my first year, I think my monthly income was higher than theirs, while they had about 45 years anciennity.

now, top that off with me being a medical disaster, being born with a very rare condition, that caused an attack a month, uncontrolable, or unpredictable when exactly, so very hard to diagnose. about each time I had one of those, my mother took a days leave, just to be able to take me to a hospital, and hoping they would find something. it took about 7 years and 5 different hospitals (can you imagine those bills?) before, just by shear luck, someone suggested "hey, try for that, if you don't have any other ideas" that they managed to figure it out. they never got financial aid, so instead of becomming aggitated, be glad that under normal circumstances, you do, instead of going all Hulk when there 's a glitch in the system you're used to.

have two cars? why? you seem to have trouble to feed your children, yet you keep two cars? why not try public transport? sure, it's no luxuary cruise, but it'll get you to your work just the same.

you say it seems we don't have experience in raising kids, and how much it costs ... well, I can't speak for the others, but where I'm concerned, you are half right.

I don't have any experience raising kids, and one of the reasons for that, is that I am very well aware of the costs.
for me, it would mean a new appartment/house (just for starters), ... and no, as long as I don't have a steady relationship with someone that's aware that household costs are no longer solved by the old 'husband pays all' principle, that's just not within my current budget. reading the list you state above, you have a good relationship, not to mention quite some luxe I can't afford, so you're "I'm so poor, you must pitty me" is bit of a lack of respect to the rest of us, if you don't mind me saying.

while you sit idely in your parents basement on the computer all day judging peoples lives keep in mind the rest of us have real jobs and real concerns to worry about and we work long hours and barely make ends meet so don't ever assume you know what were going through you dont know what we've been through plain and simple

In your rage post, I think you may have missed the glaring contradictions. You tell us not to assume stuff about you while you do exactly the same thing in the same sentence. Somehow that doesn't encourage me to respect your opinion.

we never had sex ed when I was a kid, yet nobody got pregnant. There were no teen pregnancies in my school, and similarly when I was in university none of the students got pregnant.

Yeah. But you live in Europe, not in the US where they have really warped notions about sex, nudity, etc. From what I know, Europeans aren't so uptight about all that. I don't know how old you are so I can't comment on the era you grew up in, but since I was a teen (1966-1973) kids in North America have gotten more and more sexualized, both because of the media (didn't have suggestive or explicit music videos and nobody heard of twerking) and because the widespread use of hormones has pushed down the age of puberty. I also do not recall anyone in my high school becoming pregnant, but that doesn't mean it did not occur. My university had thousands of students so unless someone in my close circle got knocked up I was unlikely to hear about it.

When the government goes out of its way to deny knowledge and availability of proper contraception then perhaps ignorance is an excuse.

my parents both worked in a factory from their early teens

A lot of the factory jobs in the US have been moved offshore.

they also made it possible for both of us to go to a decent college

The costs of college have skyrocketed to the point where many graduates are facing decades of debt. Try to afford a family and house payments saddled with that.

top that off with me being a medical disaster, being born with a very rare condition

In the US the primary cause of bankruptcy is medical costs. So in your situation today you would be triply cursed.

  1. no factory jobs
  2. high student debt
  3. crippling medical costs (pre-existing condition)

In the US... might be. but that doesn't mean it comes for free here.
but if you live at a point where you know you can't buy food for a newborn if there's a problem with the system, which now occurs (and if I'm not mistaken, that system 'll only last until the child is about 5 - might be mistaken though - what 'll happen after that? don't feed the child) then having a second child is, well ... not the best plan to have.

they already have a 15 year old child, meaning there's a span of (around) 15 years between the first and the second child. kind of looks to me like they figured out the birth control well enough.

and sure, there'll always be other issues, but if you can't afford to feed your child, I don't understand how you can afford to keep two cars.

nobody is forcing you to stay at your current job and not looking for a better one.

What better one? Where are all these wonderful good jobs? They certainly are not as common in the USA & other western nations as they used to be. Besides often a better job requires more education which is prohibitively expensive for many people.

they never got financial aid

How do you know that? I don't know the time frame we're talking about but there have been financial benefits (tax credits, etc..) for parents since the 30s so chances are they did recieve fiancial aid of some kind.

have two cars? why? you seem to have trouble to feed your children, yet you keep two cars? why not try public transport? sure, it's no luxuary cruise, but it'll get you to your work just the same.

Thanks to skyrocketting housing prices, most new families cannot afford to live near their workplace or inside big cities to get public transport (No public transport in NAmerican suburbia). Even if they could afford to live in the city many cities have really poor public transport because it is another gov't service Republicans don't want to pay for. So to get to work on time (to keep your job) each employed adult has to have their own car to commute.

Try: http://playspent.org/ see how good you are at making the budget balance.

When I grew up you got either breast milk or cow milk. Epensive baby formula was not available.

Women will simply fill in a form saying they are doing so, and it will be signed off by a midwife.

And I was beginning to thins USA was the only nation with stupid laws :) The idea is honorable, but not very practical.

Listen listen Obama sucks and doesn't even know what he is doing

His second term is starting out as a big disaster. Nothing at all like he said it would be when campaigning for his first term.

A disaster? Hardly. That word has been co-opted by the talking heads at Fox News who are comparing the rollout of the ACA to Hurricane Katrina. Hardly in the same league. However, I would use the word "disappointment". His presidency is certainly not playing out like I hoped it would when he was first elected. He talked about the audacity of hope. Was that naive idealism or was he deliberately playing on people's disgust with the status quo? I suspect more of the former than the latter. They say that running a big company is easy when you don't know how and difficult when you do. I suspect the same is even more true for government. You can't appreciate how difficult it is to change course until you are at the helm.

Every major pole shows Obama's disapproval rating at or near 53+% which is among the worst in US history. I suspect a lot of that is due to the Obamacare web site fiasco and the misinformation about keeping one's healh care insureance.