0

im seriously thinking about installing knoppix to my hdd i was gonna partition my C: drive. But im gonna purchase a new hdd in the near future and install linux on that. After gathering info to go about this ive found i need a grub or lilo for dual boot (i wanna keep xp pro for now) after a quick search on google ive become a bit confused as to which is the better of the two and also if these programs are self explanetory once put in to use.
Im aware that once installed knoppix will basically become debian which i have never used (ive never used any linux/unix program) so i hope its ok. But thats got me wondering what would be the best linux system to use as ive read lots about red-hat. now i dont know which to go for and i dont want to make the wrong decision as this could ruin my first real experience with linux :rolleyes: (ive been using knoppix live-cd for a couple of days)
please help as its better to find out from people with experience rather than trudging through lots of web pages ive been reading http://dsl.org/cookbook/ which has been helpful but i suspect is a little bit dated. Im also gonna read this http://frf.hypermart.net/linux-newbie/index.htm

thanks in advance

8
Contributors
28
Replies
29
Views
13 Years
Discussion Span
Last Post by SaraSD
0

cheers weather channel
i just purchased a 40gig hd off ebay. so im gonna install on that. Forgive me but is libranet essentially knoppix i had a look at your link and saw a knoppix screenshot on there or is it an installer??
I have been looking at the info in your signature but they have gone although i have some of them bookmarked

thanks again

0

cheers weather channel
i just purchased a 40gig hd off ebay. so im gonna install on that. Forgive me but is libranet essentially knoppix i had a look at your link and saw a knoppix screenshot on there or is it an installer??
I have been looking at the info in your signature but they have gone although i have some of them bookmarked.

Knoppix is still a good choice, but you may want to wait a few weeks. Version 3.4 is due with the opening of the CeBIT show in Hanover, Germany mid-March. The new version will have a kernel 2.6 option and KDE 3.2 is likely, as well.

If you use Knoppix, Klaus just put out a maintenance release that clears up a couple of problems, especially with HDD installs. There's also a Debian-Knoppix mailing list for the really tough problems.

Nothing against Libranet, but I have personally had excellent results with my Knoppix HD installs -- and it's hard to beat the support you can find on and the mail list.

I have a dual-HD setup myself. I use GAGboot to make dual-booting easy, even with my wierd setup.

0

Knoppix is still a good choice, but you may want to wait a few weeks. Version 3.4 is due with the opening of the CeBIT show in Hanover, Germany mid-March. The new version will have a kernel 2.6 option and KDE 3.2 is likely, as well.

If you use Knoppix, Klaus just put out a maintenance release that clears up a couple of problems, especially with HDD installs. There's also a Debian-Knoppix mailing list for the really tough problems.

Nothing against Libranet, but I have personally had excellent results with my Knoppix HD installs -- and it's hard to beat the support you can find on and the mail list.

I have a dual-HD setup myself. I use GAGboot to make dual-booting easy, even with my wierd setup.

cheers tallcool1 ill give GAGboot a look the dual boot is the thing that im most worried about at the mo. But im sure it will be straight forward. as for kernel im still not sure what it is ive read a little on http://dsl.org/cookbook/ which has been helpful but i need to get some glasses sorted as the screen hurts my eyes after a while:sad: (poor little bugger) lol. but im well excited about getting linux up and running the cd is great but limited but still a very good introduction!!

cheers mate :D

0

...i need to get some glasses sorted as the screen hurts my eyes after a while...

You do realize that in Mozilla [Ctrl]+[+] and [Ctrl]+[-] respectively increase and decrease the font size, right? It's one reason that the seniors I teach like it. It works the same under Linux and Windows. Unlike IE, it's not limited to a range -- and Konqueror has no equivalent keyboard shortcuts.

0

You dorealize that in Mozilla [Ctrl]+[+] and [Ctrl]+[-] respectively increase and decrease the font size, right? It's one reason that the seniors I teach like it. It works the same under Linux and Windows. Unlike IE, it's not limited to a range -- and Konqueror has no equivalent keyboard shortcuts.

cool!! Ididnt know that. although im in xp at the mo and using IE:sad: . Although im thinkin bout installing mozilla on xp. ive just been faffing about with the view>text size in IE to enlarge the font.
So youre a teacher. I know it maybe the wrong thread for this but i wanna do a course on computing but dont know where to begin i dont feel like a new user (ive been using windows for about 4 years so not that long but ive learnt alot)and i dont think i need a beginners course. i want to educate myself so i can get a decent job using computers im only 21 but i have a 2 year old girl so dropping of my current job to go to college is out of the question (monumental mason). maybe you could advise on somewhere to start. as i really dont know where to begin.
sorry to plague you but if you could advise it would be great.
Thanks
Nigel

0

cheers weather channel
i just purchased a 40gig hd off ebay. so im gonna install on that. Forgive me but is libranet essentially knoppix i had a look at your link and saw a knoppix screenshot on there or is it an installer??


thanks again

Ummmmmmmmmm.................no,you can read up about each linux distro at LinuxISO.org and one from there may click on the project link,to read up more about a paticular distro.

"knoppix screenshot" Yeah, it looked alot like your screenshot in the Feb desktop thread. But those all are taken in libranet. That is a KDE session, I posted one from my libranet box yesterday in the that thread, it's taken from a iceWM session it looks alot like windows. I use Blackbox(session) on my laptop because it is fast.

Some people will suggest, a noobie to start with Redhat,Mandrake or fedora......While in all reality, those people probably use linux sparingly. They might say it's easy to install,update,configure,upgrade,install pkgs...ect ,this a false myth. In reality the more advance the easier the installing,upgrading,updating...ect That's why I sugested you use Libranet it's debian based so, you get to take advantage of the Debian pkg cellar.
EXAMPLE: Say you want to update your Libranet you will simply type in a terminal
apt-get update

Say you want to Upgrade libranet,you will type:
apt-get upgrade

Say you want Aim(GAIM in linux) to chat with,in the "Admin menu" internet package terminal you will type:

gaim

How hard is that? Not to mention it will take about 2-3 min, to update & upgrade Libranet compared to the 30, 40 min on the others I named, depending on your connection. People fail to take advantage of the apt-get feature in linux and that's ashame!
*edit I attached a tutorial on the install, "work smarter not harder"

Cheers,

Attachments
Libranet Linux is a Debian based Linux distribution. It is easier to install than Debian, but this tutorial is more aimed at people who are in a hurry.

This is another tutorial I?m writing that will be pretty much step by step. The reason I write these tutorials; To make installing Linux not only easy, but very easy to understand. If more people see how easy it really is, than more people may use Linux.

 Hopefully I can keep doing these and more people will see how easy this really is.

I have NOT read any manuals or books for installing Slackware, Libranet, or most others. The reason I don?t is because most of these are just easy. Slackware for example, does not need a book. You can fallow along on the screen and it pretty much walks you through it. But not everyone has the time to look for that when they install like I do.

Libranet is pretty easy to install. I didn?t use the manuals for this either. And as long as I have time, I?ll even go through the first few configuration options to get you started after installation has finished.




Let?s begin.

I am again going to be making a few assumptions here. I?m not using any hard to find or hard to get hardware for this. 

The machine is an HP Pavilion, Pentium 3 733 megahertz processor, 384 MB RAM, Sound Blaster Live! Sound card, SMC EZ Card 1255tx NIC, 42.9 GB HD. Used to be top of the line, but now they come cheap. The sound card was put in later on and the shit win modem/soundcard was taken out.

The video card is an Nvidia Riva TNT2 with 16 MB memory.

I am assuming you are using a similar machine, or at least one that can be booted from CD. Check Libranet?s website to be sure your hardware is compatible if you are unsure.

Take the Libranet CD, and put it in the drive you are booting from. Shut the machine down, or reboot.

When your computer boots, you see a colorful text version of what you see in the
Slackware install.

Press enter.

You see text scroll and then come to a screen like you?d see in Slackware. Not graphical but not all text. Ncurses I think it is called.

Press enter at this screen to continue.

The next screen is the directions. Read these and then hit enter.

The loading modules screen appears, and then you select your keyboard. If you live in the US like me, press enter, as it default selects the US layout. If you live somewhere else, hit the down arrow key and hit enter to select another keyboard.

After you select the keyboard it scans your drive/drives.

The next screen is for HD partitioning.

Press enter.

Select automatically partition and layout drives. After this you come to another screen. I am using the entire disk so I just hit enter. If you have partitions pre defined you may want to hit the down arrow key to use free space by pressing the down arrow key, and hitting enter.

But like I said, I am using the entire disk, so I just press enter at this screen.

The next screen asks you to select the disk to install on. I only have one hard drive in this box so there is only one on here. So just press enter at this screen.

The next screen warns you that it is about to format the hard drive and that all data will be lost. Don?t worry about this, it is just a little warning for people that they are now locked into the choice to install. Press the right arrow key to select yes, then press enter.

You then see it is creating the file system and setting the drive lay out. After this is done you see another screen saying it is complete. Just hit enter here.

You know come back to the partition screen. It default selects finished partitioning, so just hit enter. At this point you tell it where the CD-ROM you are installing from is located. Just select which drive you put the CD-ROM in and hit enter. You now see it installing the base system. This can take a while as the screen says, so get some coffee, or some money you plan on sending me. After a little bit you see a blue screen. Just wait a few and you?ll see it asking how to handle system booting.

If for some reason you are dual booting, then you may have a boot manager already installed. If you do NOT have one installed, then select yes at this screen and let Libranet take care of it by pressing enter.

It installs the boot loader, then asks you where your country is. I am in America, so I hit the down arrow key two times and hit enter, then I hit the down arrow key until my state, Michigan, is selected, and hit enter again.

After this screen, you come to the boot floppy creation screen. If you plan on using this system for more than testing, you should make a boot floppy. Since I am not using it for more than testing as of now though, I am not going to create one. Mainly because I have home work to do and have a class in like a half an hour.

So I hit the right arrow key and select no. by pressing enter. The next screen you see asks for a reboot and stage one is now completed. It defaults with a reboot highlighted, so just press enter. When you press enter, a screen comes up warning you to take out the CD-ROM. Open your CD-ROM drive, and take the Libranet CD out.

After you take it out, close the drive, and hit enter. After you hit enter, you see the system rebooting. After it reboots, it gives you a time limit. Just leave the keyboard alone and it auto selects to boot Libranet Linux.

After Libranet boots, you come to a command prompt to set the root password. Do not pick a password that can be guessed easy. You should use letters and numbers in your password as it will make it a lot harder to crack.

A good way to make passwords, is to make little sentences and use the first letter from each word as your password. For example, say you like the band GWAR. Well, your password could be something like ?I like GWAR, I have 12 of their albums?. To turn this into a password, you would use the first letter of each word, and the numbers, and your password would be ?ilgih12ota?.

This is a decent password, and hard as hell to remember if you are trying to guess it. So using a sentence in the password helps a lot. After you enter the password, you enter it again to be sure you got the spelling right. After you enter the password, and have the spelling right, you see a new screen asking you to create a new user account.

Even if you are the only one using your machine, you really should create a user account. Mainly because it is so damned tempting to see what rm -rf / actually does. After you enter a username, hit enter. You then see a prompt to give this username a password. Enter the password, and then you will be entering it again as always. Also, note that the password does not show up on the screen in command line mode. No ******* or anything.

After you enter the password, it says ?password updated successfully? And gives you another prompt. Enter the name of the user here, and press enter, after pressing enter, it prompts you again and again and again for information.

If you are setting this machine up in a business then you should enter this all in, but if you are using it only at home for yourself, this information will only be good for when you are too drunk to remember your name address and phone number.

After entering in all the information you wanted too, you see a new prompt asking you ?Is the information correct?? Just type ?y? here and press enter unless you fucked some of it up and need to retype it. If you fucked up and need to re type it, press the letter ?n? on your keyboard, and press enter to re enter it. If you got it right and are happy with it, press the letter ?y? on your keyboard and press enter.

After you press enter and all information is added, it asks you if you would like to add another user. If you are setting this up for business use, or you are setting it up for more than just yourself to use the machine, then you should enter in the users you need to give access too. If you don?t want to enter in anymore, just type ?n? and press enter.

At this point, you add your host name. You can enter whatever the hell you really want here, unless you are setting this up in a business environment, in which case you should enter company information from your system admin, or whatever you need to enter here. After you enter the information, press enter after you are sure of the information, and sure that ?OK? is highlighted.

After pressing enter, you come to a screen telling you that the host name was set. Press enter. After this you are asked to put the Libranet CD-ROM back in the CD-ROM drive. After you have put the CD-ROM back in, press enter.

After you press enter, you see a screen saying please wait. Then you see it installing the kernel source, and then you come up to a nicely designed installation screen for software. The arrow keys and the TAB key are used for navigation.

If you are installing on a laptop, you should select the PCMCIA software. Select the software you want by pressing the arrow and TAB keys and using the spacebar to select software. If you select something by accident and don?t want it selected, just hit space bar again.

After you have used the up and down arrow keys to select what you want, hit the TAB key to highlight install, and press enter. You come to a screen telling you what you have selected, and asking to proceed. It is already highlighting ?CONTINUE?, so just press enter.

After you press enter, you see it installing all of the software you selected in the previous screen. You?ll notice that it is using .deb packages. This is because Libranet is Debian based. This will take a while to install everything, so relax. If you have money lying around you can send it to me.

Leave the keyboard alone during this time. At some points it may seem like it is freezing up, but give it a few minutes and it will be back to installing software. Also, don?t worry about the ?oasis-open.org? thing, just leave it alone.

After a while you see a screen saying it is safe to remove the CD-ROM now. Remove the CD-ROM, and press enter. If the CD-ROM Doesn?t want to come out yet, then fuck it, leave it in.

You can press enter anyway, and when you press enter, you go to another screen asking you if you?d like to configure sound. If you have a sound card and want sound like I do, pr
0

Some people will suggest, a noobie to start with Redhat,Mandrake or fedora......While in all reality, those people probably use linux sparingly. They might say it's easy to install,update,configure,upgrade,install pkgs...ect ,this a false myth. In reality the more advance the easier the installing,upgrading,updating...ect

I disagree. It's not a myth at all, but a reality. Those distributions were designed with "easy" in mind, regarding installing and upgrading packages. Show me a first-time Linux user who knows anything about compiling from source or patching a kernel. All they have to know is "rpm -i filename.rpm" and it works for them.

What you're saying is, "the harder it is to do, the easier for them it will be." That's like saying, "If you don't understand it, it will be a piece of cake." The average person trying out Linux is curious, like all of us who've been using Linux for years are. They want to experiment with something new and/or different to them, see if they like it, and maybe use it. Others just want to see what all the hype is about. Others yet are looking for a real alternative to something with a Microsoft brand name on the package, and they need to find out which distro will work the best for them.

I recommend Debian to people wanting to "check it out" simply because it's a very good distro. Knoppix, Gnoppix, Libranet, LindowsOS, and a slew of others are all based on Debian, so they're pretty much the same underneath - they all use the Debian package management system. Fedora, Mandrake, SuSe, RedHat, and others use the RedHat package management system (rpm = RedHat Package Manager.) It's a matter of personal preference to the individual which one they use.

As far as only taking 2 to 3 minutes to update & upgrade a .deb system, compared with 30 - 40 minutes with others, I've seen Debian boxes take up to 2 hours to fetch/apply updates. It all depends on how up-to-date the system was to begin with, the connection speed, how many updates are being applied, and the system hardware itself. Not to mention the level of experience the Admin doing the updates has...

Some people will suggest, a noobie to start with Redhat,Mandrake or fedora......While in all reality, those people probably use linux sparingly.

I know a lot of enterprises using RedHat for DNS, DHCP, and firewalls, and the people who run them are experienced SysAdmins. It doesn't have to be "difficult" to be "good."

...just my 2 cents...

0

Ummmmmmmmmm.................no,you can read up about each linux distro at LinuxISO.org and one from there may click on the project link,to read up more about a paticular distro.

"knoppix screenshot" Yeah, it looked alot like your screenshot in the Feb desktop thread. But those all are taken in libranet. That is a KDE session, I posted one from my libranet box yesterday in the that thread, it's taken from a iceWM session it looks alot like windows. I use Blackbox(session) on my laptop because it is fast.

Some people will suggest, a noobie to start with Redhat,Mandrake or fedora......While in all reality, those people probably use linux sparingly. They might say it's easy to install,update,configure,upgrade,install pkgs...ect ,this a false myth. In reality the more advance the easier the installing,upgrading,updating...ect That's why I sugested you use Libranet it's debian based so, you get to take advantage of the Debian pkg cellar.
EXAMPLE: Say you want to update your Libranet you will simply type in a terminal
apt-get update

Say you want to Upgrade libranet,you will type:
apt-get upgrade

Say you want Aim(GAIM in linux) to chat with,in the "Admin menu" internet package terminal you will type:

gaim

How hard is that? Not to mention it will take about 2-3 min, to update & upgrade Libranet compared to the 30, 40 min on the others I named, depending on your connection. People fail to take advantage of the apt-get feature in linux and that's ashame!
*edit I attached a tutorial on the install, "work smarter not harder"

Cheers,

Thanks weather channel. as you say it seems simple enough ive just gotta learn the commands. Its gonna be fun. im the sort of person that easily gets bored when not learning something new (it does my womans head in, but i like it:lol: ) so i think im gonna have alot of fun learning linux. i havent looked at your install tutorial yet but i will give it a good perusing through. And i think i understand what youre saying about the more advanced OS.

Cheers chief!!

0

I disagree. It's not a myth at all, but a reality. Those distributions were designed with "easy" in mind, regarding installing and upgrading packages. Show me a first-time Linux user who knows anything about compiling from source or patching a kernel. All they have to know is "rpm -i filename.rpm" and it works for them.

What you're saying is, "the harder it is to do, the easier for them it will be." That's like saying, "If you don't understand it, it will be a piece of cake." The average person trying out Linux is curious, like all of us who've been using Linux for years are. They want to experiment with something new and/or different to them, see if they like it, and maybe use it. Others just want to see what all the hype is about. Others yet are looking for a real alternative to something with a Microsoft brand name on the package, and they need to find out which distro will work the best for them.

I recommend Debian to people wanting to "check it out" simply because it's a very good distro. Knoppix, Gnoppix, Libranet, LindowsOS, and a slew of others are all based on Debian, so they're pretty much the same underneath - they all use the Debian package management system. Fedora, Mandrake, SuSe, RedHat, and others use the RedHat package management system (rpm = RedHat Package Manager.) It's a matter of personal preference to the individual which one they use.

As far as only taking 2 to 3 minutes to update & upgrade a .deb system, compared with 30 - 40 minutes with others, I've seen Debian boxes take up to 2 hours to fetch/apply updates. It all depends on how up-to-date the system was to begin with, the connection speed, how many updates are being applied, and the system hardware itself. Not to mention the level of experience the Admin doing the updates has...


I know a lot of enterprises using RedHat for DNS, DHCP, and firewalls, and the people who run them are experienced SysAdmins. It doesn't have to be "difficult" to be "good."

...just my 2 cents...

I appreciate what youre saying the ogre. I can tell im gonna have to do more homework than i thought on choosing the right system.
im sure weather channel will correct me if im wrong but what i think he's saying is that the more advanced the program surely the more user friendly in terms of stability and day to day use. it could maybe take more stick than a less advanced system. and would be easier to use in theory as it is more advanced. maybe the learning curve is a bit more steeper to start off with.
dont get me wrong im not trapping off or anything and i appreciate the input i just think that maybe you missed the point weather channel was making.

thanks guys:D

0

More advanced does not always mean more stable, just like easy doesn't always mean unstable.

More advanced does NOT mean more user-friendly. Try Slackware to see what I mean.

Also, keep in mind that packages do BREAK. Not always, but happens sometimes. If you don't know how to fix it when it DOES break, you're going to have problems. ALL packages break at one time or another, from Debian to Slackware to FreeBSD. Knowing what to do when that happens is the important thing.

The point I was trying to make was just because something is easy doesn't mean it isn't good. Do your homework, look at more than one distro, and see which one YOU like the best. If you like the way Slackware resembles UNIX, great! If you like Mandrake's interface better than Debian's, great! If you prefer a .deb system as opposed to a .rpm system, go for it!

They're ALL Linux. There's just a lot more flavors of Linux than there are of anything else, which means you have more CHOICE. Take them all for a test ride and see which one you feel the most comfortable with, then learn everything you can about it. When you get bored with that one, try another one. Have some fun with it, too - you'll learn more ;-)

0

More advanced does not always mean more stable, just like easy doesn't always mean unstable.

More advanced does NOT mean more user-friendly. Try Slackware to see what I mean.

Also, keep in mind that packages do BREAK. Not always, but happens sometimes. If you don't know how to fix it when it DOES break, you're going to have problems. ALL packages break at one time or another, from Debian to Slackware to FreeBSD. Knowing what to do when that happens is the important thing.

The point I was trying to make was just because something is easy doesn't mean it isn't good. Do your homework, look at more than one distro, and see which one YOU like the best. If you like the way Slackware resembles UNIX, great! If you like Mandrake's interface better than Debian's, great! If you prefer a .deb system as opposed to a .rpm system, go for it!

They're ALL Linux. There's just a lot more flavors of Linux than there are of anything else, which means you have more CHOICE. Take them all for a test ride and see which one you feel the most comfortable with, then learn everything you can about it. When you get bored with that one, try another one. Have some fun with it, too - you'll learn more ;-)

i know what youre saying mate and i didnt mean it in a literal term. im struggling to find the words to express what i mean (whence the incoherent spells:cheesy: ) i just mean that if its more advanced then surely it has better built in features to upgrade and the like. Although i just found out that libranet classic edition 7.0 has not got (english)english language packet just (english)american. but im from the UK so maybe thats not the best OS for me. although after reading a review it got a good score 8/10. i think its really that or knoppix!!!

:D

0

Let me first start by saying, there are really only five types of Linux:

1. Linux standard (anything that comes in a box or is not spcified below)
2. Pitbull LX (the addition of DBAC and network flags and the existance of the SA, SO, and ISSO users represent an architectual difference)
3. Trusted Linux (This HP research project uses more traditional MAC via the Bell-LaPadula model as well as the SA and SO accounts seperate this system)
4. SE-Linux (the flask architecture with its RBAC and destruction of the root user differing from the previos two systems set this research project apart)
5. Not Otherwise Specified (this includes Linuces altered to work in fundamentally differing ways. Oddly this section isn't as common as you may think and in my career I have only seen a handful of these systems.

Anyone disagree?

I disagree. It's not a myth at all, but a reality. Those distributions were designed with "easy" in mind, regarding installing and upgrading packages. Show me a first-time Linux user who knows anything about compiling from source or patching a kernel. All they have to know is "rpm -i filename.rpm" and it works for them.

Taking into mind the steps of installing opensource app's in some types of linux.
Steps on installing if your a noobie.
EXAMPLE: 1#(Libranet ect...)
1.Type app name in a fetching term.
2.Run app
--------------------------------------------------
EXAMPLE: 2#(SuSE ect.....optinal for most)
1.Find app on internet manually.
2. Download app manually.
3. Extract app manually.
4.Cd to app manually.
5.Config app manually.
6.make app manually.
7.make install app manually.
8.(process could end at step 5 with a extra step after)
9. Run app.

Rpm's you still have to find,download...ect
I'll let the people do the math on that one!

What you're saying is, "the harder it is to do, the easier for them it will be." That's like saying, "If you don't understand it, it will be a piece of cake." The average person trying out Linux is curious, like all of us who've been using Linux for years are. They want to experiment with something new and/or different to them, see if they like it, and maybe use it. Others just want to see what all the hype is about. Others yet are looking for a real alternative to something with a Microsoft brand name on the package, and they need to find out which distro will work the best for them.

Pls, do not spin.

I recommend Debian to people wanting to "check it out" simply because it's a very good distro. Knoppix, Gnoppix, Libranet, LindowsOS, and a slew of others are all based on Debian, so they're pretty much the same underneath - they all use the Debian package management system.

Bonus! no comment

Fedora, Mandrake, SuSe, RedHat, and others use the RedHat package management system (rpm = RedHat Package Manager.) It's a matter of personal preference to the individual which one they use.

Reffer to my example.

As far as only taking 2 to 3 minutes to update & upgrade a .deb system, compared with 30 - 40 minutes with others, I've seen Debian boxes take up to 2 hours to fetch/apply updates. It all depends on how up-to-date the system was to begin with, the connection speed, how many updates are being applied, and the system hardware itself.

Ummmmmmmmmmm..........go back and read my statement. ;) I thought we were going to keep it at the home user level, but I can take several levels higher aswell.

Not to mention the level of experience the Admin doing the updates has...

I know a lot of enterprises using RedHat for DNS, DHCP, and firewalls, and the people who run them are experienced SysAdmins.

Two reply's

A firewall is not the only "real" way to protect a system, in fact a good number of high security systems run no firewall at all. I don't know where you work or work for but, most of our systems at work run without firewalls & AV. (Including most of my home and remote systems.) It's all in the config. ;)

System administrators in a well defined organization really are not paid to think, they are paid to follow procedure and to do the tasks put on their lap. I know that many SyS admins out there are not going to like that comment, but you should review the Carnigie Mellon maturity models if you don't want to take my word for it. Add in security concepts like need to know, seperation of duties, and role rotation and it really becomes clear. Don't get mad guys just read. See I used to want to be like my budd's(SyS Admins),untill I found out how many orders they take, I'm not good at taking orders, I'd rather give them, because I do themath. ;)

It doesn't have to be "difficult" to be "good."

I agree.

*edit take a look here http://daniweb.com/techtalkforums/thread601.html

0

This forum isn't meant for arguments, so I won't post any comments about that, except that any network that doesn't have some kind of firewall or antivirus protection deserves to get owned/infected.

0

My days of debating with people who know little or nothing on the subject at hand are over.So I wouldn't worry about arguing with me, because it's not going to come to pass!

except that any network that doesn't have some kind of firewall or antivirus protection deserves to get owned/infected.

That statement shows your caliber in the IT field. Some books for you to read.
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0849311373/qid%3D1063663107/sr%3D2-3/ref%3Dsr%5F2%5F3/104-5104591-0788745

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0749440783/qid=1063663041/sr=1-2/ref=sr_1_2/104-5104591-0788745?v=glance&s=books

Viruses can be defeated with proper configuration, ;) I use no anti-virus software, neither does my work and neither of us have ever had a problem. It's just a matter if dealing with process propagation and trusted resources correctly.

If your reading this thread and you have no exp in risk mgmt or any IT field keep your firewalls & AV.;) This includes mom & pop networks, ;) aswell as home users/servers.

0

woah there expensive books weather channell. you obviously know alot about security!! i never realised you could run a system without firewall or AV thats quite amazing. im sorry i ever doubted you about sygate now (*creep*)lol. it must have been my problem. although im still happy with ZA youre making me doubt it!!
cheers mate

0

just thought id update. ive decided to go for mandrake 9.2 as this seems to suit me although im gonna split my hard drive in half and install another linux OS in the near future.

0

This forum isn't meant for arguments, so I won't post any comments about that, except that any network that doesn't have some kind of firewall or antivirus protection deserves to get owned/infected.

My sentiments exactly. No firewall, whether software, hardware, or both is just asking for trouble. It's an open invite to anyone who can operate a hacking script. Speaking of which...If he wants his system to be tested...I suggest he leave his IP. I have plenty of friends who can put on a white hat for a day. :cheesy:

0

I would like to start by saying that,Some people should not mistake me for a " know it all in the UN*X forums" , I work in a highly formal environment (with significant resources) and I know that this isn't for everyone. I don't expect everyone to follow those ideals.(TKS/TheORGE) I just want people to be aware of them & not ignorantly reject them because of your level of education.
If you respond intelligently, I am not rude... but when people post things that are just so blatantly wrong, the very attempt on their part as a novice to try to argue that with me is insulting. many of my posts are downright friendly, I just have zero tolerance for uneducated people that spread misinformation. And without people like me... god imagine where we'd be then? ;) If bad information just stood as truth! Like I've seen on this board.

I am not here to be liked and I am not seeking friends, but people that know me are aware that I know my shit and that I will also give not only straight answers but high assurance documents for further reading and they find that valuable.

No firewall, whether software, hardware, or both is just asking for trouble.

Applying this to me,how do you reconcile this? Or am I misunderstanding you, and you believe that you are more knowledgable on security than the authors of those books above? that is really the only way I can see that your arguments would be logical. (Do you have any exposure to trusted systems? The argument you are making lead me to think no, and if that is the case I can provide some more reading if you are interested,after you have picked up the books above.)

Firewalls are no means an end all security solution, and frequently not needed for security at all.
However, I will take the time to correct you, "Physical Firewall" like "Hardware Firewall" are incorrect terminology, the proper term is "Dedicated Firewall" that is a system that does nothing but act as a firewall. Frequently these run on minimalistic systems with operating systems not seen beyond this niche if not specifically created for it.

Basically all firewalls are software. (with the possible exception of some very
targeted/research projects, we wont get into that)
Again a firewall is not the only "real" way to protect a system, in fact a good number of high security systems run no firewall at all. Heck, all my systems run without firewalls, like I said above it's all in the config. But you probably think extra firewalls means extra security.

It's an open invite to anyone who can operate a hacking script. Speaking of which...If he wants his system to be tested...I suggest he leave his IP. I have plenty of friends who can put on a white hat for a day.

Look, the last thing I need is some skiddi3 trying to explain how he & his skiddie friends are going to attempt an attack(correct terminology ;) ) on my TOS.............let me provide more reading material so you can comsume the terminology & apply it next time!..................................After having a bit of drama at my work resulting in way too many email memos being sent and a project being delayed over a misunderstanding of a security related term I decided to hunt
down a copy of RFC2828, which one of the parties in question had neverseen.
Having done this it also occured to me how many debates here and other forums are over simple semantics... and since I happend to have it on hand now...This document is the Internet Security Glossary and is really the closest thing to an offical IS security disctionary.
attached below.

But if your going to run a firewall because you don't know how to configure properly.
http://www.fwtk.org/
It's free, it will do what you need it to. You can filter by ports,content,typing,
protocols, whatever. heck you can even interface it with various modules floating around that actually look at content content... as in: 'what is the jpeg is of?', or 'what is the document is about?'

More reading, http://www.radium.ncsc.mil/tpep/library/rainbow/index.html
Heck I'll just post all of my personal bookmarks maybe both of you will learn somthing. I have selected my IS related ones and have pasted them below for both of you.
Organizations:
http://www.acm.org/ (Association of Computing Machinery)
http://www.ieee.org/ (Institute of Electrical and Electronics Engineers)
http://www.bcs.org.uk/ (British Computer Society)
http://www.acs.org.au/ (Australian Computer Society)
Certifications:
http://www.isaca.org/ (CISA/CISM ceritifications)
http://www.isc2.org/ (CISSP certitification)
Standards:
http://csrc.nist.gov/ (The Computer Security Resource Center at the National Institute of Standards and Technology)
http://www.radium.ncsc.mil/ (Trusted Product Evaluation Program + Network Rating Model)
http://www.commoncriteria.org/ (The Common Criteria/ISO 15408)
http://www.iso17799.net/ (ISO17799/BS7799 + BS15000-1, BS7858, and BS8220)
http://babysealkiller.cannabisinfo.org/BS7799/ (BS7799 overview)
http://www.comp.mq.edu.au/units/ite.../RiskManage.pdf (AS/NZS4360 overview)
http://stinet.dtic.mil/str/dodiss4_fields.html (DOD specifications and standards)
http://www.dsp.dla.mil/ (Defense Standardizations Program)
http://www.dscc.dla.mil/Programs/MilSpec/ (MIL specifications and drawings)
http://www.kolacki.com/standards_status.htm (Status of IEEE, ISO, ANSI, and SAE standards w/ SPAWAR, FAA, ILI. IHS, & DOD links)
Education:
http://www.sei.cmu.edu/cmm/ (Capability Maturity Models)
http://www.cs.tcd.ie/courses/baict/...t11/Coursework/ (Trinity Advanced Computer Security coursework)
http://seclab.cs.ucdavis.edu/ (UC Davis Computer Security Lab)
Vendor Security:
http://www.microsoft.com/security/ (Microsoft security)
http://www-3.ibm.com/security/ (IBM security)
www.hp.com/security/ (HP security)
Security Vendors:
http://www.argus-systems.com/ (Argus Systems/Pitbull systems)
http://www.bodacion.com/ (Bodacion Technologies/HYDRA systems)
http://www.eeye.com/ (eEye Digital Security)

Attachments
Network Working Group                                          R. Shirey
Request for Comments: 2828                        GTE / BBN Technologies
FYI: 36                                                         May 2000
Category: Informational


                       Internet Security Glossary

Status of this Memo

   This memo provides information for the Internet community.  It does
   not specify an Internet standard of any kind.  Distribution of this
   memo is unlimited.

Copyright Notice

   Copyright (C) The Internet Society (2000).  All Rights Reserved.

Abstract

   This Glossary (191 pages of definitions and 13 pages of references)
   provides abbreviations, explanations, and recommendations for use of
   information system security terminology. The intent is to improve the
   comprehensibility of writing that deals with Internet security,
   particularly Internet Standards documents (ISDs). To avoid confusion,
   ISDs should use the same term or definition whenever the same concept
   is mentioned. To improve international understanding, ISDs should use
   terms in their plainest, dictionary sense. ISDs should use terms
   established in standards documents and other well-founded
   publications and should avoid substituting private or newly made-up
   terms. ISDs should avoid terms that are proprietary or otherwise
   favor a particular vendor, or that create a bias toward a particular
   security technology or mechanism versus other, competing techniques
   that already exist or might be developed in the future.

















Shirey                       Informational                      [Page 1]

RFC 2828               Internet Security Glossary               May 2000


Table of Contents

   1. Introduction . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .   2
   2. Explanation of Paragraph Markings  . . . . . . . . . . . . . .   4
      2.1 Recommended Terms with an Internet Basis ("I") . . . . . .   4
      2.2 Recommended Terms with a Non-Internet Basis ("N")  . . . .   5
      2.3 Other Definitions ("O")  . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .   5
      2.4 Deprecated Terms, Definitions, and Uses ("D")  . . . . . .   6
      2.5 Commentary and Additional Guidance ("C") . . . . . . . . .   6
   3. Definitions  . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .   6
   4. References . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 197
   5. Security Considerations  . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 211
   6. Acknowledgements . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 211
   7. Author's Address . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 211
   8. Full Copyright Statement . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 212

1. Introduction

   This Glossary provides an internally consistent, complementary set of
   abbreviations, definitions, explanations, and recommendations for use
   of terminology related to information system security. The intent of
   this Glossary is to improve the comprehensibility of Internet
   Standards documents (ISDs)--i.e., RFCs, Internet-Drafts, and other
   material produced as part of the Internet Standards Process [R2026]--
   and of all other Internet material, too. Some non-security terms are
   included to make the Glossary self-contained, but more complete lists
   of networking terms are available elsewhere [R1208, R1983].

   Some glossaries (e.g., [Raym]) list terms that are not listed here
   but could be applied to Internet security. However, those terms have
   not been included in this Glossary because they are not appropriate
   for ISDs.

   This Glossary marks terms and definitions as being either endorsed or
   deprecated for use in ISDs, but this Glossary is not an Internet
   standard. The key words "SHOULD", "SHOULD NOT", "RECOMMENDED", "MAY",
   and "OPTIONAL" are intended to be interpreted the same way as in an
   Internet Standard [R2119], but this guidance represents only the
   recommendations of this author. However, this Glossary includes
   reasons for the recommendations--particularly for the SHOULD NOTs--so
   that readers can judge for themselves whether to follow the
   recommendations.









Shirey                       Informational                      [Page 2]

RFC 2828               Internet Security Glossary               May 2000


   This Glossary supports the goals of the Internet Standards Process:

   o Clear, Concise, and Easily Understood Documentation

      This Glossary seeks to improve comprehensibility of security-
      related content of ISDs. That requires wording to be clear and
      understandable, and requires the set of security-related terms and
      definitions to be consistent and self-supporting. Also, the
      terminology needs to be uniform across all ISDs; i.e., the same
      term or definition needs to be used whenever and wherever the same
      concept is mentioned. Harmonization of existing ISDs need not be
      done immediately, but it is desirable to correct and standardize
      the terminology when new versions are issued in the normal course
      of standards development and evolution.

   o Technical Excellence

      Just as Internet Standard (STD) protocols should operate
      effectively, ISDs should use terminology accurately, precisely,
      and unambiguously to enable Internet Standards to be implemented
      correctly.

   o Prior Implementation and Testing

      Just as STD protocols require demonstrated experience and
      stability before adoption, ISDs need to use well-established
      language. Using terms in their plainest, dictionary sense (when
      appropriate) helps to ensure international understanding. ISDs
      need to avoid using private, made-up terms in place of generally-
      accepted terms from standards and other publications. ISDs need to
      avoid substituting new definitions that conflict with established
      ones. ISDs need to avoid using "cute" synonyms (e.g., see: Green
      Book); no matter how popular a nickname may be in one community,
      it is likely to cause confusion in another.

   o Openness, Fairness, and Timeliness

      ISDs need to avoid terms that are proprietary or otherwise favor a
      particular vendor, or that create a bias toward a particular
      security technology or mechanism over other, competing techniques
      that already exist or might be developed in the future. The set of
      terminology used across the set of ISDs needs to be flexible and
      adaptable as the state of Internet security art evolves.








Shirey                       Informational                      [Page 3]

RFC 2828               Internet Security Glossary               May 2000


2. Explanation of Paragraph Markings

   Section 3 marks terms and definitions as follows:

   o Capitalization: Only terms that are proper nouns are capitalized.

   o Paragraph Marking: Definitions and explanations are stated in
      paragraphs that are marked as follows:

      - "I" identifies a RECOMMENDED Internet definition.
      - "N" identifies a RECOMMENDED non-Internet definition.
      - "O" identifies a definition that is not recommended as the first
        choice for Internet documents but is something that authors of
        Internet documents need to know.
      - "D" identifies a term or definition that SHOULD NOT be used in
        Internet documents.
      - "C" identifies commentary or additional usage guidance.

   The rest of Section 2 further explains these five markings.

2.1 Recommended Terms with an Internet Basis ("I")

   The paragraph marking "I" (as opposed to "O") indicates a definition
   that SHOULD be the first choice for use in ISDs. Most terms and
   definitions of this type MAY be used in ISDs; however, some "I"
   definitions are accompanied by a "D" paragraph that recommends
   against using the term. Also, some "I" definitions are preceded by an
   indication of a contextual usage limitation (e.g., see:
   certification), and ISDs should not the term and definition outside
   that context

   An "I" (as opposed to an "N") also indicates that the definition has
   an Internet basis. That is, either the Internet Standards Process is
   authoritative for the term, or the term is sufficiently generic that
   this Glossary can freely state a definition without contradicting a
   non-Internet authority (e.g., see: attack).

   Many terms with "I" definitions are proper nouns (e.g., see:
   Internet Protocol). For such terms, the "I" definition is intended
   only to provide basic information; the authoritative definition is
   found elsewhere.

   For a proper noun identified as an "Internet protocol", please refer
   to the current edition of "Internet Official Protocol Standards" (STD
   1) for the standardization state and status of the protocol.






Shirey                       Informational                      [Page 4]

RFC 2828               Internet Security Glossary               May 2000


2.2 Recommended Terms with a Non-Internet Basis ("N")

   The paragraph marking "N" (as opposed to "O") indicates a definition
   that SHOULD be the first choice for the term, if the term is used at
   all in Internet documents. Terms and definitions of this type MAY be
   used in Internet documents (e.g., see: X.509 public-key certificate).

   However, an "N" (as opposed to an "I") also indicates a definition
   that has a non-Internet basis or origin. Many such definitions are
   preceded by an indication of a contextual usage limitation, and this
   Glossary's endorsement does not apply outside that context.  Also,
   some contexts are rarely if ever expected to occur in a Internet
   document (e.g., see: baggage). In those cases, the listing exists to
   make Internet authors aware of the non-Internet usage so that they
   can avoid conflicts with non-Internet documents.

   Many terms with "N" definitions are proper nouns (e.g., see:
   Computer Security Objects Register). For such terms, the
0

Not too bad, but here's some you left out:

http://www.sans.org/ (Computer Security Education and Information Security Training)
http://www.gocsi.com/ (Computer Security Institute)
http://www.cert.org/ (CERT Coordination Center)
http://ciac.llnl.gov/ciac/index.html (U.S. DOE-CIAC)
http://www.isecom.org/ (The Institute for Security and Open Methodologies)
http://packetstorm.linuxsecurity.com/ (PacketStorm)
http://www.immunix.com (Immunix Host Intrusion Prevention)
http://www.dshield.org/ (DShield - Distributed Intrusion Detection System)
http://www.cotse.com/ (Church of the Swimming Elephant)

...I had most of the others already...

As I stated before, this forum isn't for arguments or settling personal disputes. This forum is for helping people by answering their questions.

The average user here isn't a Security specialist, so in their environment, a firewall and some flavor of virus protection would be needed, unless you're going to volunteer your services to implement your recommendations in their infrastructure.

The original topic of this thread was regarding Knoppix - NOT Security. I suggest we get back on track, or close the discussion. Feel free to discuss your recommendations for security-related issues in either a new thread or a different area of the forum.

0

Hey everyone.

Going along with the Knoppix or else...I'd like to offer you a chance for a good distro that could be associated with the "or else" of your statement. I've recently tried a bunch of new distros and havn't been able to find one that sits where I want it to as far as applications/tools/configurability/power retention. I thought Debian would be the best way to go...so I looked for live CD's based off of debian with an optional hard disk install.

I found it...MEPIS Linux. By far the best distribution I have found. While it isn't extremely pretty yet (it's only a year old) it detects darn near everything you have immediately on boot up. It detected my mother-in-laws USB CDRW!!! That's a first for my linux experience. Great thing about MEPIS is that it is a live CD and you can try it out...configure it...and THEN install it after it is configured. It uses debian repositories for packages so you can apt-get your little heart out! The control panel features rawk...I could go on and on. And all of this coming from a die hard slackware user. Of course, I've been looking for something that could do office work on the linux side for a while and this distro is robust enough for me to keep it!

I slapped it onto an emachines T1090 and added it to my LAN. I liked it so much, I made a banner for it and put it onto my site.

http://www.tksbox.net/products

anyway...try this distro out. It is fantastic...and remember, this thing is only a year old. Imagine what the next release will be like.

0

cool but you do realise that knoppix once installel (which you can and i have install from the live cd) is essentially debian once installed. and has a powerful hardware detector the only thing i had trouble with was my onboard sound which took about 20 secs to fix!!! but thanks for giving people variety :) :)

0

It's an open invite to anyone who can operate a hacking script. Speaking of which...If he wants his system to be tested...I suggest he leave his IP. I have plenty of friends who can put on a white hat for a day.

Ok... I'll setup AITOS6 server.
I will run every service under the sun that you want of any version and configuration of your choice. I'll give you the SA, SO, and ISSO passwords (System Administrator, System Operator, Information Systems Security Operator what root gets broken up into) in fact I'll give you all the passwords for every account on the system. I'll install any trojans you want.Since you boys insist on firewalls ;) , I will run no firewall or any third party protection software.
Could I be a worse admin than this? What is your server going to be?
You can lock the system down as much as you like but you must run at least one standard service. (ftp, rpc, http, ssh, https, sql, smtp, etc) in as locked down but functional state as you wish.You can have as many people help you as you want.

OR.........I can rig up another test server if that one proves to advance for you skiddies. ;)

Again regarding other people pls, don't spin, your getting me banned over here!

Edit***** I apologize drummer boy if this thread took another direction, but bb's are not finite. Here is a more advanced link to your live distros. http://www.frozentech.com/content/livecd.php

0

drummerboy i dont know if you have installed knoppix yet as i jst skimmed thru most of the posts :o but as long as you keep your mind open to linux try all the distros you can till you find the one that you like best. there are so many to choose from you mite as well find one that works best for you :)

0

I would like to start by saying that,Some people should not mistake me for a " know it all in the UN*X forums" , I work in a highly formal environment (with significant resources) and I know that this isn't for everyone. I don't expect everyone to follow those ideals.(TKS/TheORGE) I just want people to be aware of them & not ignorantly reject them because of your level of education.
If you respond intelligently, I am not rude... but when people post things that are just so blatantly wrong, the very attempt on their part as a novice to try to argue that with me is insulting. many of my posts are downright friendly, I just have zero tolerance for uneducated people that spread misinformation. And without people like me... god imagine where we'd be then? ;) If bad information just stood as truth! Like I've seen on this board.

I am not here to be liked and I am not seeking friends, but people that know me are aware that I know my shit and that I will also give not only straight answers but high assurance documents for further reading and they find that valuable.
Applying this to me,how do you reconcile this? Or am I misunderstanding you, and you believe that you are more knowledgable on security than the authors of those books above? that is really the only way I can see that your arguments would be logical. (Do you have any exposure to trusted systems? The argument you are making lead me to think no, and if that is the case I can provide some more reading if you are interested,after you have picked up the books above.)

Firewalls are no means an end all security solution, and frequently not needed for security at all.
However, I will take the time to correct you, "Physical Firewall" like "Hardware Firewall" are incorrect terminology, the proper term is "Dedicated Firewall" that is a system that does nothing but act as a firewall. Frequently these run on minimalistic systems with operating systems not seen beyond this niche if not specifically created for it.

Basically all firewalls are software. (with the possible exception of some very
targeted/research projects, we wont get into that)
Again a firewall is not the only "real" way to protect a system, in fact a good number of high security systems run no firewall at all. Heck, all my systems run without firewalls, like I said above it's all in the config. But you probably think extra firewalls means extra security.
Look, the last thing I need is some skiddi3 trying to explain how he & his skiddie friends are going to attempt an attack(correct terminology ;) ) on my TOS.............let me provide more reading material so you can comsume the terminology & apply it next time!..................................After having a bit of drama at my work resulting in way too many email memos being sent and a project being delayed over a misunderstanding of a security related term I decided to hunt
down a copy of RFC2828, which one of the parties in question had neverseen.
Having done this it also occured to me how many debates here and other forums are over simple semantics... and since I happend to have it on hand now...This document is the Internet Security Glossary and is really the closest thing to an offical IS security disctionary.
attached below.

But if your going to run a firewall because you don't know how to configure properly.
http://www.fwtk.org/
It's free, it will do what you need it to. You can filter by ports,content,typing,
protocols, whatever. heck you can even interface it with various modules floating around that actually look at content content... as in: 'what is the jpeg is of?', or 'what is the document is about?'

More reading, http://www.radium.ncsc.mil/tpep/library/rainbow/index.html
Heck I'll just post all of my personal bookmarks maybe both of you will learn somthing. I have selected my IS related ones and have pasted them below for both of you.
Organizations:
http://www.acm.org/ (Association of Computing Machinery)
http://www.ieee.org/ (Institute of Electrical and Electronics Engineers)
http://www.bcs.org.uk/ (British Computer Society)
http://www.acs.org.au/ (Australian Computer Society)
Certifications:
http://www.isaca.org/ (CISA/CISM ceritifications)
http://www.isc2.org/ (CISSP certitification)
Standards:
http://csrc.nist.gov/ (The Computer Security Resource Center at the National Institute of Standards and Technology)
http://www.radium.ncsc.mil/ (Trusted Product Evaluation Program + Network Rating Model)
http://www.commoncriteria.org/ (The Common Criteria/ISO 15408)
http://www.iso17799.net/ (ISO17799/BS7799 + BS15000-1, BS7858, and BS8220)
http://babysealkiller.cannabisinfo.org/BS7799/ (BS7799 overview)
http://www.comp.mq.edu.au/units/ite.../RiskManage.pdf (AS/NZS4360 overview)
http://stinet.dtic.mil/str/dodiss4_fields.html (DOD specifications and standards)
http://www.dsp.dla.mil/ (Defense Standardizations Program)
http://www.dscc.dla.mil/Programs/MilSpec/ (MIL specifications and drawings)
http://www.kolacki.com/standards_status.htm (Status of IEEE, ISO, ANSI, and SAE standards w/ SPAWAR, FAA, ILI. IHS, & DOD links)
Education:
http://www.sei.cmu.edu/cmm/ (Capability Maturity Models)
http://www.cs.tcd.ie/courses/baict/...t11/Coursework/ (Trinity Advanced Computer Security coursework)
http://seclab.cs.ucdavis.edu/ (UC Davis Computer Security Lab)
Vendor Security:
http://www.microsoft.com/security/ (Microsoft security)
http://www-3.ibm.com/security/ (IBM security)
www.hp.com/security/ (HP security)
Security Vendors:
http://www.argus-systems.com/ (Argus Systems/Pitbull systems)
http://www.bodacion.com/ (Bodacion Technologies/HYDRA systems)
http://www.eeye.com/ (eEye Digital Security)

Just an update on a couple of these links:
http://www.iso17799.net/ is changing URLs to the mother site: http://www.standardsdirect.org/iso17799.htm

Also, the ISO 17799 User Group is now at:
http://www.17799.com

I hope this helps.


Sara
:)

This topic has been dead for over six months. Start a new discussion instead.
Have something to contribute to this discussion? Please be thoughtful, detailed and courteous, and be sure to adhere to our posting rules.