Reverend Jim 4,110 Hi, I'm Jim, one of DaniWeb's moderators. Moderator Featured Poster

But was your son doing a 20-year study? Was he using real-time laboratory hardware? If he wasn't doing these, using new equipment is fine.

Any study that relies on the same computer hardware/software being available continuously for 20 years is likely doomed to fail before it even starts. Creating an experiment/study that relies on hardware that depends on specific bus timing is extremely bad design. I'm having trouble conceiving of an experiment that would have to conform to the restrictions you list.

If the computer is replaced and the old lab equipment will not work properly with it, the entire study so far is turned into to garbage.

That's why you determine that the software will run on the new equipment before you decommission the old equipment.

Reverend Jim seems to think that all you have to do is plug the new computer in, install the software, and it works.

That's not even close to what I was saying so please don't put words in my mouth. I spent 15 years developing/maintaining software on an AGC/SCADA mainframe that was tied to dozens of RTUs (remote terminal units) at many generating/distribution stations around the province. We knew that eventually we would be unable to keep the system running due to the lack of spare parts. We eventually started a replacement project that went online in November of 1998. The new system went through a strict commissioning procedure before the old system was turned off. Even after the switchover, we kept the old system functional in the event of a failure. Hardly plug and play. The system is used to control all of the generation and distribution of power in the province so it is magnitudes more complex than the systems running at missile silos. Incidentally, the new system used the same communication protocol as the old system to talk to othe RTUs so there was no incomatibility. I will grant you that certain equipment failures at a silo can have more devastating consequences. In any case, I do have some experience with systems that must remain functional over long periods.

I should also mention that I have developed software that has run on several generations of hardware. In a few cases only minor software changes were required.

And if the old computer really has 8" disks, it doesn't have any of the microprocessors that are in use today. It probably has an Intel 8080, a Z80, a Mostek 6502, or a Motorla 6800 or 6809. Any software that runs on these will NOT run on any new computer.

So give me an alternative. You can't keep ancient hardware running forever. Eventually it has to be replaced. Everything wears out.

What I want is the ability to buy BOTH kinds of computers.

Are you saying that you want the manufacturers to continue making the same computers they were making back in the 70s and 80s? What company could stay in business with that strategy? Do you see Ford still making Model Ts?

gerbil 216 Industrious Poster

I saw a report recently that showed US missile silo installations still running software that is loaded from 8" floppy disks

That's nothing, Midi... I saw a report where it was found that a junked Russian sub was loaded with two live nuclear missiles still.

Tcll 66 Posting Whiz in Training Featured Poster

not surprized about that :P

but to mention a little about the topic, he was talking about the software loaded onto the missiles.

so is anyone gonna help me bring WinXP back into commision, or do I have to win this battle alone?? :/

don't get me wrong, Aero is a great API where WinAPI is a nightmare,
but we need an OS w/o MS's RAT.

perhapse I should learn how to control that thing just to warn everyone how unsafe they really are with anything above XP >_>

I'll be providing a download of XP x64 (it's actually safer than older XP installations) just in case MS desides to screw their users over even more by removing their download.

and I'll provide installations of free active protection rated by me.
(I might actually get into developing a protection software)
^ just because free companies in this area can't do stuff right.

if keeping people safe is illegal, then by all means, throw me in jail.

Tcll 66 Posting Whiz in Training Featured Poster

sorry for a double post... edit timed out while I wrote this...
let's see what you guys have to say here:

I recommend using these with WinXP.

JenniferArden 4 Jennifer

I use BitDefender Total Security and works pretty good without hogging the pc down too much. AVG did not impress me much, the other's on your list I have never used.

Tcll 66 Posting Whiz in Training Featured Poster

thanks for that, I forgot to list that one :)

I just want to know how many viruses it protects you from,
for example, I'd rate Vipre a good 96%, comodo around 70%, and Avast around 45% (mostly the extreme viruses and some minor ones for Avast).
though I can't quite validate those ratings... >.>

not sure if I mentioned here (I've just mentioned it on the thread), I've argued with a local computer salesman about the MS-RAT (which he didn't know about), and during the argument I mentioned I used Comodo and Avast, where he told me he has military knowledge about Avast being rated the 3rd worst protection.

--- OT:
He didn't seem to know about Comodo, and how their browsers protect you from most malware threats before they even reach your computer.
(unlike most browsers except Opera, which I rate Opera12 having the best protection for popular browsers)
^Opera15+ and Comodo Dragon both use Chrome's unsafe engine

so why do I rate Dragon as the safest?
because Comodo's a security company, and of course has more knowledge than any other browser developer.
(both Opera15+ and Dragon have been doctored to actually be safer, but I don't believe Opera was able to make Chrome as safe as their Presto engine)


anyways, he still says Win7 is the best when it comes to support (which I of course have to agree with as most developers have fallen right into MS's trap), but isn't sure about security so much anymore...

I also questioned him about Linux, which he said the only problem there was Flash support could never be done right and will always have issues (not sure how accurate that is as my friend doesn't seem to have any problems with Zorin), and of course he tried to say you couldn't run EXEs, which I brought up Wine (an EXE emulator) and Mono (.NET support), which he went onto another topic from here.

in any case, we had a fun time challenging each other's knowledge. :)
he at first didn't even know how to look at me as I'm good at hiding how much I really know, he thought I was just some other computer noob who only knew enough to simply put together a computer. XD

and of course he taught me alot about new hardware :P

and yea, with people pushing me still, I think I'm gonna get into controlling the MS RAT and posting a dialog on everyone's screen warning them just how unsafe their OS is.

hopefully some developers will stop supporting 7/8 and actually revive XP. (porting the Aero libraries over WinAPI and such)

wanna know something that really grinds my gears?
check out this noob's quote:
"No, they stopped supporting XP because it's THIRTEEN FREAKING YEARS old."

this was from an argument that took place on BitTorrent forums, where I almost got banned for spam when I was trying to educate the developers as to what they were supporting.

I don't look so highly on BitTorrent developers anymore after I tried to make up to one of them by talking it over with one of them in a convo (the one who I offended as I didn't keep the thread on topic).
he still kept applying my statements towards the forum itself instead of taking them as knowledge for himself, and called what I was doing a vendetta (among other things which were actually true).

it's not in my nature to hold things against people, so a vendetta is impossible, but it is in my nature to protect everyone from an impending doom (MS's RAT which is able to lock and shut down computers)

also, if I must mention, all of my knowledge is forwarded from other Windows hackers. one of which who actually cracked the RAT, but unfortunately is no longer contactable through my means (I never got his email) :(

dangit, I went off on a rant again! >.<
I'm sorry :)

gerbil 216 Industrious Poster

I use split solutions.
BitDefender. Nope. Tried it; could not get it to ignore softwares/files that I did NOT want it looking at. It deleted them every time I touched them. Binned it fast.
Avast. It is a fairly low-rating AV solution, if still extremely popular. Bugs you with ads and offers.
AVG. I'm using it, have been for about 4 months. Occasionally (once or twice a month) pops a paid-for-solution window. Clean interface, ignores stuff you want ignored, much lower system load than BitDef and Avast, has never hung stuff. OS loads faster with it. I'd be happier still if I could direct it where to place its signature update files. I'm happy with it. I still follow AV reviews every few months.
Vipre. Yike. Read this...,2817,2429401,00.asp
It rates as standard, meaning it scrapes through with better than half marks. Works fine on old malware, not so well on newer malwares, and the false positives drag it down.

Tcll 66 Posting Whiz in Training Featured Poster

so much for this computer salesman's military knowledge. lol
looks to me like he's almost no different from any other noob. :P
(to top things off, he hardly even goes on the internet)

knowing how Avast and Comodo store their quarentined files, I think I'll keep them running (they don't hurt each other, and I'm in with both of their communities)

Vipre however, reading about it, they seem like your typical business people... not to mention their program boggs down your performance (at least on my PC).

I will never trust AVG, Norton, or McAfee.
AVG is known to destroy compys, and I've had personal experiance with one.

I don't mind Avast's ads and offers, it still blocks a fair amount of viruses.

Comodo's HIPS is really good, and I'm sure Vipre's is just about as good, but comodo has an annoying sound with their's :P
(Comodo removes more than Avast during a scan, but as stated on my article doesn't catch things placed on your compy)
^Avast catches RATs and Trojans extracted or downloaded to your compy, and so does Vipre, but CAV can pretty much be permanently disabled

Avast and Comodo both allow you to skip over files, I havn't played with Vipre long enough to know what it does

btw, I'm installing multiple AV's together.
it just means more databases of protection.
(I'm pretty sure one company isn't gonna know about every virus that's out there)
^each company figures out how to protect your compy from random multiple viruses daily, and the more you're protected from, the better.

all that matters is that the softwares can cooperate with each other like Comodo and Avast.

JenniferArden 4 Jennifer

no problem tcll :) It great to have someone else here who is also passionate about XP! I also still use XP and am very satisfied with it.

Gerbil there is a place in BitDefender to exclude files and folders you want BD to ignore. It works very well, it also took me a while to find it but its there. Ive been using BD for 3 years and it works well for me

gerbil 216 Industrious Poster

I know, Jennifer. But all that BD would ignore were my entries in that place... :)
It carried on blithely.
I have limited patience with stuff that should work.

MidiMagic 579 Nearly a Senior Poster

Any study that relies on the same computer hardware/software being available continuously for 20 years is likely doomed to fail before it even starts.

So how are you supposed to predict what will be available during the entire 20 year period? Do you have a future-seeing crystal ball?

We started two 20-year studies in 1990. At that time MS-Dos had been a stable operating platform for 8 years, with only minor changes. 10 years later, when the first computer failed, we could not buy anything that would replace it. Nobody expected either Windows or its changed I/O operations. Then we contacted the lab instrument company for an upgrade, only to find out that nothing they made in 1990 would work under Windows, and they can't find a way to make new products that can do the same job.

Creating an experiment/study that relies on hardware that depends on specific bus timing is extremely bad design. I'm having trouble conceiving of an experiment that would have to conform to the restrictions you list.

I know of two, because these were the things we could no longer do once DOS disappeared:

  • A system where we continuously monitor incoming data from an electromyograph sensor at 1KHz. Once an onset of motion is detected, a resistive force must be released within 5 ms.

  • A system monitoring a chemical reaction through ph, temperature, and released CO2 concentration. When certain combinations of these values exsist, certain corrective actions must be taken, again, within a few milliseconds.

The problem is that Windows makes I/O wait for the next 55 millisecond jiffy counter tick, and any output after an input must wait another 55 ms. So these actions are delayed by up to 110 ms.

The Windows solution is to put time stamps on the data with hardware, so it is recorded at the correct time even though it was delayed until the jiffy counter tick happened. But how do you put a time stamp on the subject of the experiment or the chemical reaction, telling them the controlled event should have really been issued 73 ms earlier?

It's not the timing of the main data bus, but availability of the I/O bus.

If the computer is replaced and the old lab equipment will not work properly with it, the entire study so far is turned into to garbage

That's why you determine that the software will run on the new equipment before you decommission the old equipment.

So what do you do if none of the new equipment can run the old software, or if it can't operate the old hardware?

Most of the equipment in 1990 with this kind of speed (see above) had its own dedicated I/O card that plugged into the ISA bus. By 2000, the ISA bus was mostly gone, and the Windows I/O timing prevented building an adaptor or a new card that could operate the 1990 equipment. The old (and expensive) lab equipment cannot be controlled by a 2000 vintage computer. And of course, nothing that could use the new I/O bus and timing existed in 1990. It hadn't been invented yet. That's only 10 years into the 20 year experiment.

That's not even close to what I was saying so please don't put words in my mouth. (clipped for brevity) In any case, I do have some experience with systems that must remain functional over long periods.

What was the minimum response time to an event your system required?

I should also mention that I have developed software that has run on several generations of hardware. In a few cases only minor software changes were required.

Provided the software does not have to control real-time equipment, this is quite the norm. I have one piece of software I wrote that is running on many different operating systems. Of course, I had to recompile it for each different system. But the change to Windows destroyed most of the educational games I wrote for MS-DOS.

Are you saying that you want the manufacturers to continue making the same computers they were making back in the 70s and 80s? What company could stay in business with that strategy? Do you see Ford still making Model Ts?

Then the convenience of the computer manufacturers effectively ends several kinds of science that has been used for years, because they feel they have to put everyone through this mad upgrade rush.

Ford made the Model T from 1908 to 1927. That's 20 years. Then someone had the stupid idea that they had to come up with a new model every year. But automakers are also under a law that requires replacement parts to be available for 20 years after they are no longer included in new cars. I want such a law for computers.

All I really need are replacement power supplies, fans, disk drives (or drivers for the old OS for newer drives), and circuit boards, not completely new computers.

I even tried buying up spare parts. But some of the parts (particularly the electrolytic capacitors built into them) deteriorate over time. And they deteriorate faster if the equipment is not used.

Here is another problem. When Microsoft changed everything from DOS to Windows, most of the companies making this kind of scientific equipment found out that it could not be made to work at all under Windows, so they just discontinued it.

Other companies hid the fact that the data were being distorted by the Windows I/O timing. We found out the hard way AFTER spending money to buy the equipment.

I wish that some company would make a system that they guarantee will not change over time, sold just for these long term studies. It could be a little single board computer.

MidiMagic 579 Nearly a Senior Poster

Another incompatibility issue between old and new computers just surfaced monday.

One of my clients was having trouble with a home WiFi system. This is in a rental district of town, and the problem is that there are too many home WiFi systems in the area. There are often 3 or more in each house.

The problem was the user turning on his WiFi tablet and not being able to print to his WiFi printer. The cause was that one or the other had connected to a neighbor's WiFi system instead of his own. They then could not communicate through the router as they would normally.

I suggested that he use an Ethernet cable to make the connections to the modem/router/switch (it has four sockets on the back), so there would be no mistake. But neither the computer nor the printer have Ethernet connectors. Everything was designed to work with nothing but WiFi.

Manufacturers are heading in the direction of stupidity. I do not even want any wireless equipment in my house, to avoid eavesdropping. Am I now denied the choice?

Reverend Jim 4,110 Hi, I'm Jim, one of DaniWeb's moderators. Moderator Featured Poster

What was the minimum response time to an event your system required?

I don't recall but it likely wasn't to the resolution that you required. One of my first applications was for recording motor-neuron membrane potentials. it was developed on an Imsai 8080 microcomputer back in 1978 and I doubt the hardware is still available. I suspect that scientific applications requiring that fine a control would be more suited to unix/linux rather than Windows (or ios for that matter).

MidiMagic 579 Nearly a Senior Poster

We tried a linux system. It had the same trouble, because the operating system gets its own timeslice (during which nothing else can happen).

In addition, linux prioritizes the I/O according to the speed and periodic needs of the I/O devices. We had the problem that linux changed the order of our I/O requests. It collected the data first (skipping some data points), then it sent out the correction values, and only after it completed that did it release the signal to start the experimental process. While I was researching how to prevent this from happening, they killed the project because it seemed to the administrator to be a dead end.

What we really need is a very rudimentary operating system that shuts totally down when it is not needed to operate a disk drive, serial port, or a printer, plus commands in the programming language to directly access I/O ports.

MidiMagic 579 Nearly a Senior Poster

More incompatibilities surfacing in computing. I am sick of everything costantly changing. I just used a feature I used to use in this post editor, and it destroyed what I had already typed. You changed how it worked. And the Home and End keys do the wrong things now. Oh, and I can't use the buttons and links at the top of this posting editor because it scrolls under the header.

I just found out that the W3C has again changed the HTML standards to make old web pages again incompatible with new ones. New pages don't have a DTD, meaning that a lot of the features of older pages are gone:

A. They took away the ability to use character names for special characters (e.g. &times;). The only ones that work are the ones that are required to make scripts with. You have to use the numeric code instead (e.g. &#215;).

This is represensible. Who can remember these numeric codes? I use the &nbsp; code more than any other, to keep dates and titleds together on a line. Now that is gone.

B. I have over 100 uses of the <acronym> tag, and now they want to get rid of that. The replacement is a horrific combination of three tags.

It's time to deprecate the W3C.

And many companies don't let you email them any more. They want the hated identity theft barons facebook or twitter instead. But I don't trust them enough to use them.

There should be a $1 million fine for anyone who wants to change an existing standard, replacing it with something new.

JenniferArden 4 Jennifer

I agree if something works and it gets changed / sanctioned just for the sake of changing / discontinueing support with out considering the consequenses/implications its wrong. I used XP Pro and it comes with IE8, newer versions of IE will not install on XP and sometimes some websites are not compatible with IE8. I dont want to juggle between IE8 and FireFox, I just want to use IE8.

Tcll 66 Posting Whiz in Training Featured Poster

same here, I've always been the cross-browser support type of guy, and I've loved IE8 until I found out how easy it was to be controlled by hackers (.vbs scripts)

heck, you can even use ActiveX to write files on the end-user's machine
(luckilly XP64 and ActiveX don't get along well) :P
^there's tons of things in XP64 that make it safer than XP Pro and the like... heh
(and of course as my many rants have mentioned make it safer than newer OS's)

I use chrome now (I've written a lengthy appology to google)
I rate it as safer than opera 12, though there's shady speculations about google tracking you...
on this note, I do believe Comodo removed that in their Dragon browser,
but I'm on Linux now and last I tried, Dragon wouldn't install on Wine.

might I mention, despite chrome being the only browser I've seen with Malware Protection, I do believe Dragon improves upon this, as well as puts you through Comodo Secure DNS (doesn't allow you to visit harmful websites)

meaning you're safer using Comodo Dragon than Google Chrome.

what's really sad though is software developers are playing MS's game and not developing for XP...
this will entrap more users into using 7/8 or 10

someone really needs to port Aero to XP64...
the only final thing we have to worry about is the version check.

MS wants to control you, don't expect their stuff to work on XP (the last OS w/o a built-in RAT) even with the Aero port (once made).

I'm still trying to get info on how my friend's friend disabled Win8's RAT with python...
(I'm a python2.7 programmer and want to replicate whatever he did)

asaukani 0 Light Poster

in my country Indonesia and I think may be in the other developing country XP is still widely used. the people don't consider security threat very seriously because most hoem computers or laptop don't connect to the internet or may be only occasionally. and as we know XP is very robust

JenniferArden 4 Jennifer

I use XP Pro x64 SP2 and love it. I agree XP is very robust, we use it at work for server and clients - no problems at all.

Mel_4 0 Newbie Poster

Windows XP will take about another 10 years to die, it was/is that strong!!
Microsoft can offer security protection for it, and it should do so, some users prefer XP to 7 and 8, why not co-exist, it can work!

Tcll 66 Posting Whiz in Training Featured Poster

because MS wants to:
1: control their users, software, and the market (Software Control, and the MS-RAT found by hackers), which XP can't do
2: not have to work their butts off for the money they get (Aero was designed for that)
3: gain more money by completely dropping previous support and forcing companies and developers to support new standards.

being an XP hacker myself (only to fix bugs/incompatibilities and do cool stuff to my OS), I can say it's more than possible to port Aero over WinXP.
This means DX11 and just about any new interface using Aero can also be ported over XP.
(networking is another issue as that interface was redesigned with higher security and MS-RAT support)
^this is why alot of network loggers work better on Vista+

I'm a hardcore Wii hacker (as my avatar screams) looking into building my own game with my own server for Wii, which is why I need a network logger. :P
(screw Nintendo's interfaces which no longer exist)

for those people who still take the word "hacking" negatively:
I'm a white-hat hacker, and have no intent to bring any harm to others.
I just do cool stuff, and like to help protect others by my knowledge. ;)

For example, I know how to hack a bank account and such, but I'm not stupid enough to do that...
To add, I hate money, enough to engineer free resources to not have to use it.

magnet motors is one free resource lighting up youtube, which Maummer Yildiz has a patent on his (working) design.

I'm designing more portable and smaller layouts for various uses.

anyways... I'm not going any further off topic to try to clear up any more links/questions...
This topic is about Windows XP and why it's such a good OS and what MS is trying to do to it.

happygeek 2,411 Most Valuable Poster Team Colleague Featured Poster

Interesting info from new Proofpoint analysis of Russian cybercrime infrastructure

Windows XP clients comprised 52% of the infected systems in the cybercrime group’s botnet, even though recent estimates place the Windows XP install base at 20-30% of business and consumer personal computers.

MidiMagic 579 Nearly a Senior Poster

The IRS is using XP because it will take years to develop replacement software - longer than Microsoft keeps an operating system.

RobertHDD 15 Posting Whiz in Training

Well 1 is that they got all admin rules 2 win 7 doesnt have all that 3 windows 8 is shit and 4 windows 10 might have xp rules

Tcll 66 Posting Whiz in Training Featured Poster

windows 10 might have xp rules

I very highly doubt that, but I won't say it's not probable.

I know I'm gonna have the last laugh once I'm the only Windows user with a working Windows. XD
since nobody will listen to me about MS's control plot and what hackers have found in Windows (anythingabove XP).

I can't post proof as the closest thing I have for Win8 was a skype call with my friend who's friend disabled the Win8 RAT.
Win7 was forwarded info to me by a few friends, Vista I read about a long time ago and don't rmbr the srcs.
(when I'm not busy, and actually take a decent stroll through my past history, I'll post my info)

anyways, I await to hear of the moment the RAT still exists in Win10
and the only way to remove it is to rebuild the kernel w/o the RAT src.
(this is known by hackers, the RAT can ONLY be disabled, not removed)

the only bad part about XP is csrss.exe can be used as a RAT
I believe this was patched in XP64. (I havn't looked it up, but I know it was patched in Vista, which I'm unsure if that came before XP64)
XP64 has no reported cases of the MS RAT (that I know of)
so I'm right in assuming it's only a kernel port to x64 (a very lazy one at that).

RobertHDD 15 Posting Whiz in Training

An XP freak

Tcll 66 Posting Whiz in Training Featured Poster

An XP freak

I much more prefer the term hacker :P
(I just make things work by hacking them into XP)

I'm not advanced enough to port Aero though :(
(nor do I really have the time or mental space to complete such a task)

I'll admit myself, WinAPI is a nightmare and GDI needs to GTFO.
DirectX also needs to X itself out of the competition. har har

RobertHDD 15 Posting Whiz in Training

Yo will be in a battlefield full of nasties

Tcll 66 Posting Whiz in Training Featured Poster

Yo will be in a battlefield full of nasties

tbh, I've kindof been battling for quite a while, and am getting rather bored because everyone would rather support the RAT over someone going all out to protect them from the RAT.
(I'll admit going into a tough crowd empty handed wasn't a smart decision)
^ I was stupid and homeless at the time I started looking into it. (Don't look down on me)

or if my autism is hitting me and you're talking about the 'me porting Aero' battlefield
I've been expecting alot of hastle and stress from it...
it's MS, nothing but hastle and stress no matter what Windows you use. :P

MS creates stress just to gain more income...
they're one of the world's biggest zits.

I'm not putting Linux in the Limelight here either...
how many years has Linux been out??
where's the stress free part of Linux??

the problem with linux is nobody cares about a good GUI.
everything's done via the terminal, which takes at least a geek's level of computer knowledge just to use properly.
the rest of it is learning the layout of Linux just to work the terminal to get things working for you.

Linux is GOOD in that you get a 3x larger application base with all the support needed to run things (there are limits and bugs, though most can be worked around by researching them).
the second good thing with linux is that anything wrong with it is patched as soon as found and updated usually in the next day.
(it's impossible to keep a virus going on linux for a long time before it gets patched)
^this is where Open Source beats Closed Source

what disappoints me about Linux is the extremely small amount of software compared to any Windows installation.
but it's almost nothing Wine can't handle ;)
(I'm having small problems with many tools I use for hacking, but it's nothing unstable)
^ most general tools used by everyone (other than major Windows integrations such as Visual Studio) should be supported properly ;)

perhapse the small software base is due to Ubuntu's software center, which pretty much groups just about every application built for Linux.
where most of the software for windows is rebuilds and cracks because people don't know how to share, and let's not forget user bases here too.

sorry for going into a rant...
I have too much fun comparing logic and weeding out negativity. :P

stairforce 0 Newbie Poster

I actually think this question is asked the wrong way round. It is not so much why people cling to XP as why would they change? Installing a new OS on old hardware involves a cost (the OS licence) and is technically quite challenging for many PC users. And there is a risk that the machine will perform poorly or not at all. Why would people invest time and money for that outcome? And how much more can they do with the machine afterwards?

And in these straitened times, not everyone can afford to upgrade their hardware (or even just their OS. At home, I have machines running an assortment of OSs from Windows 2000 Pro, XP, W7 and W8.

I have rebuilt a PC onto a new hard disk, and built Linux servers, but have only once upgraded an OS on existing hardware. (It was Win95 -> Win98. It was a free upgrade with the PC.)

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